Shotokan for self defence.

[RafaChan]

All you need to do is neutralize a competent Bjj black belt with neck jabs, and you'll be golden.

Im ok with that and in time i will look to collect some material for us while ill prove my claim/point. Again i must reiterate the concept of what you would interpret as neck jabs about what i did in reality. Not only the boxe or karate sole punch. In my drill i prefered and used a wide array of fingers and fore knucle strikes such as ippon ken, hira ken and my nukites at the throat when i got mounted.

Those are some of the karate very usefull cantrips (wich other MAs styles lacks or denies) that can serve even the beginners and neophytes in a more realistic SD scenario and that most people simple deny coz are not being presented on the mainstream and not presented usually in most karate classes and in most of their core training. Thats the whole point of my said "claim". Not the purpose of being a millionaire ofc and to bash a specific grappling art wich btw i respect. I wasnt thinking of that when i joined here to participate on this very thread. And also im not creating nothing out of the dust. Those moves were always there. Hidden / Forgotten - maybe coz they represent in part warfare ways of being authentic ''no rules'' and its the kind of stuff not much marketable nowadays. You cant put that in a show. Think of that.

I was studying some material about that subject when i entered on that forum to check what was going on with shotokan as SD around the world. And as i was reading this extensive thread during the weeks ive found that would be of a great help (for me and for others) to spread some words of what i find thats ideal and applicacle in real SD scenarios concerning what i have did and seen using some shotokan techs and also to share with others experiences aswell. Wich IMO im founding to be an ok discussion and sharing. Specialy if it have potential to help others and to bring more light uppon the said subject.

Shotokan and other forms of karate for SD its highly underestimated and IMO theres no one to blame by that. If the majority of students, instructors and most associations aim for the sports and physicalty conditioning i would just let them alone, and if i train with them sometimes i keep only whats good for me, the rest of what doesnt interest me i wont be focusing on my own training. Like i told in before the quest must be personnal. The ideal training that few people are searching doesnt end in the dojo. Theres really a LOT of gap that we have to fill by yourselves if we wanna apply what we developed IRL scenarios. Ofc competent instructors always help but theres a limit for that help extent, some of the times we must have to go deeper and seek in other directions by ourselves applying the lot of things we are seeing for our own particular world and limits.

Sorry for the walls of text. Im really trying to be more objective to express myself but i think most people are missing a lot of things. Common sense and mainstream can bug people out sometimes. Im not special and not above anyone, just wanna share and spread some words and maybe others can use as shortcuts in their personal quests. Always take only wich will serve your own reality. There are a lot of MA styles with their masters and paths out there but the end/objective of being effective in SD will be the same for most. Follow the path or paths that will serve you better, we already as human beings have solids foundations regarding SD and MAs. Keep practicing and adapting for yourself and in time you start to walk your own path about what to be the ideal.

Im replying Hanzou here but for the first moment i dont wanna expect nothing of him, i even doesnt know him, his limits or what will be ideal for his own reality. But here are my words so everyone can see and take their own conclusions about what will be ideal on their particular cases. Like shotonoob already stated also, there are really a lot of gap for us to fill with about what those foundational masters are telling us to do. Those sometimes tend to be very generic in some of their principles (recap M Funakoshi). For me thats implied that we just have to figure out by ourselves coz they know everyone as individuals are commonly different worlds. Thats why some principles seems so vague in general. Sometimes its intrincate sometimes seems to be unachievable but its very simple and right behind our noses.

 

[RafaChan]

To me, a block is defensive, along the lines of kihon theory. My extension of kihon theory in the case of your bunkai posts is then that the knifehand is no longer a block; it's in reality a strike.
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In the black-belt level programs, knifehands are typically taught as blocks. However, in the 1-steps and self defense applications presented, knifehands are employed in striking as well.

Indeed. Its when shuto uke cross the line of a block and turns an attack disguised or not (i aim to the neck, side of jaw or floating ribs mostly), wich i said to be a hard block coz in a lot of bunkais you can see ppl using shuto uke only as a hard block for attacks wich i personally find a poor applicantion and dont use it. They miss the part of the strike of that said "block".

The way i use shuto uke a lot its in conjunction with osae uke for counter attacking. And theres good reasons for that. I can use osae uke also followed by a more direct straight attack like a punch (oi-kizami-gyaku zuki, it depends of the enemy movimentation) or a direct shihon nukite strike for example (like the technique is presented in nidan and sandan forms always after the osae).

What i have found ideal coz of immense sinergy too its the usage of osae uke then shuto uke. Osae uke its a very good block coz allow the blocker to defend very fast and change the direction of the attacker punch, while at the same time it gaves the possibilitie to even mess with the attacker balance when you sweep his arm/hand.

But most important, osae uke as a circular kind of technique can create a lot of momentum to add more power to the kime of the shuto attack, as while you arc your hand-arm for the block and twist your torso-hips a little for the move the shuto hand its already going next your head to perform the turn and strike.

Ofc you have to train that while going forward or backward coz as a counter attack oriented move you will be responding of what your opponent its doing. For example, if he punches and kept distance you block and go forward to attack with shuto or if he punch and came in closing distance, ideally block then move back performing your counter. Even all that body movement transitioning tru kokutsu stances will count in add more kime as you already knows.

I used that mostly to give a solid response tactic that control enemy jabs if hes studying me too much while you force him to stance switch and being controlled coz ideally you have to keep your front foot same side with his (coz i want his flank) while that way we create more distance from his attacks specially his reverse. The idea its to force him let his flank kinda open when he comes in to jab while you keep protected moving his jab arm to his center neutralizing both of his arms for a moment while you hit.

In summary, the traditional karate curriculum in its entirety is very broad & detailed, offering lots of techniques & alternative tactics. Again, why KIME developmet is so important over the conventional boxing mantra of 'fast jab, strong right cross.' The reliance of Shotokan kumite competitors on the sport model of having a single or two athletic tactic is traditional karate failure....

We have to start from somewhere. The said tactic i presented with pretty basic strikes served me being usefull to add a lot more and create more opportunities to my whole strategie. I agree with you when you say that those limited and highly conditioned by the kumite-fencing dynamics will be out of responses if the fight lasts more than that those one-two-three moves. Despite you already knows i heavily pursue ikken hissatsu (from the karate thesis ^^) i dont limit my strategie and training conditioning by that mentality.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I only spotted the one "example" above, of my apparent lack of understanding.

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Dave, thanks for replying. Over the internet, it's always going to be hard to make a direct connection using printed media.

I would love to hear more about this mental dimension to traditional karate that I am missing? Just saying it's there doesn't really give any weight to your assertion.

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From a serious practitioner standpoint, the correct way to assert your position is for you to define the mental dimension. The Master's have clearly addressed this component. It's typically presented in general descriptive manner. Yet same is made plain. That's if you're truly interested...

Also if example two is forthcoming perhaps a little elaboration might make it easier to understand.

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I'll work on that.

 

[ShotoNoob]

...
The way i use shuto uke a lot its in conjunction with osae uke for counter attacking. And theres good reasons for that. I can use osae uke also followed by a more direct straight attack like a punch (oi-kizami-gyaku zuki, it depends of the enemy movimentation) or a direct shihon nukite strike for example (like the technique is presented in nidan and sandan forms always after the osae).

What i have found ideal coz of immense sinergy too its the usage of osae uke then shuto uke. Osae uke its a very good block coz allow the blocker to defend very fast and change the direction of the attacker punch, while at the same time it gaves the possibilitie to even mess with the attacker balance when you sweep his arm/hand.

But most important, osae uke as a circular kind of technique can create a lot of momentum to add more power to the kime of the shuto attack, as while you arc your hand-arm for the block and twist your torso-hips a little for the move the shuto hand its already going next your head to perform the turn and strike.

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When is your & K-Man's traditional karate manual coming out?
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Bigger question, how many will put down their focus mitts and train karate traditionally?
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On the dynamic of the osae-uke to shuto-uke, yes that is a very effective combination. KIME is the key & the driver. At least for argument sake. Good luck with getting that across.....
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Movements like you've describe harken back to the Chinese kempo's, IMO. Again, there's no one stopping the truly dedicated from digging into the Shotokan curriculum.... great illustration on your part.... good luck with getting that across....
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EDIT: I have seen this technique presented in the black-belt curriculum described as a self defense application. Never in free sparring....

 

[ShotoNoob]

...I would love to hear more about this mental dimension to traditional karate that I am missing? Just saying it's there doesn't really give any weight to your assertion.

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OK, I'll venture forth. Here's a YT vid of a TKD / TSD poomse / hyung I posted somewhere some time ago. I queried the audience as to what was wrong about this kata from a traditional karate standpoint. No one could hazard a guess.
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I choose a simple beginner kata, 'cause these panned as for children, ya know not real adult karate. Nothing could be farther from what the Master's intended. Furthermore, these simple kata isolate out the concepts of what we traditional karateka are trying to accomplish. Shotokan refers to these as FIRST CAUSE. the foundational concepts of traditional karate training....
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Shoto, "principles" is a very common term for karateka. What do you understand by the term and what principles are you referring to for help with anti-grappling?

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Here's the kata: There is a huge omission in a required physical form-technique / step in the kata.

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The significance of the error / omission in FORM is in the absence of an element of the mental dimension of traditional karate training. It's left out. The omission of any physical technique is probably minor. The impact on the mental dimension, particularly when we are talking about self defense, is possibly catastrophic.
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EDIT: OH, and good luck with that....

 

[Username Redacted]

Have you seen many recorded street fights or street beatings? All that stuff you mentioned above is never used either. Why? Because its kind of hard to spit in someone's face when their fist is connecting with your jaw, and its pretty hard to bite someone when your head and body is colliding with the planet after they throw you to the ground.

I have to agree with this, I'm afraid. There's a great forum on the site reddit that is pretty good for getting some idea of what street fights can look like. It's reddit.com/r/amateurfights. Despite the fact that biting, gouging, and clawing are fairly natural motions, I don't think I've ever seen an example of someone successfully using those in the videos on that forum.

That isn't to say I agree with the general sentiment of grappling über alles, but I'm profoundly skeptical of the idea of overcoming fantastic grappling skills by hitting the grappler in the throat or gouging his eye out.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Shoto, "principles" is a very common term for karateka. What do you understand by the term and what principles are you referring to for help with anti-grappling?

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When we talk about traditional karate SERIOUSLY, we must look @ principles first. Not physical moves, techniques, etc.
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Hence the global anti--grappling principle is that we traditional karateka are NOT presenting a striking or grappling defense, we are presenting a MENTAL defense. My mind is going to outdo your physical grappling stuff. My mental state is going to be superior to your Jose Aldo physical ability.
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Such concepts such as KIME are taught & reinforced in the Taikyoku kata, as they are in every component of traditional karate training, here Shotokan. Here is an excellent example of mental discipline over Jose Aldo type stuff (or Royce Gracie type stuff).

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this is perfect Shotokan karate, IMHO. What that means PRINCIPE-WISE, is that this practitioner has developed the foundational mental discipline to clean Royce Gracie's clock, and hopefully Matt Hughes too...
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EDIT: good luck with that.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

SENSEIBILL'S TANG SOO DO BASIC HYUNG NO. 1.
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This form is also done well according to the principle of mental capability, mental discipline. Nothing is omitted mentally.

Note the Tang Soo Do hyung is hard & physical, but softer and less rigid than The Shotokan version. I feel this is a benefit in training. both methods are acceptable and have their strong points....IMO.
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At time = .38, SenseiBill states that the only 2 'moves' are low block & middle punch. He's right when speaking to TECHNIQUES. There are, however, a multitude of physical moves going on in this form. Moreover, there are multiple tactical principles layered on that & so illustrated.
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To state that this hyung is teaching only 2 techniques is only at the very lowest level of understanding the traditional karate exercise of kata.
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BTW: these tactical concepts are applicable to anti-grappling. But it's the internal mental principles that make such karate 'come alive.'

 

[ShotoNoob]

^^^ DaveB & Co., Good luck with that....

 

[ShotoNoob]

dup

 

[Username Redacted]

Hence the global anti--grappling principle is that we traditional karateka are NOT presenting a striking or grappling defense, we are presenting a MENTAL defense. My mind is going to outdo your physical grappling stuff. My mental state is going to be superior to your Jose Aldo physical ability.
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Such concepts such as KIME are taught & reinforced in the Taikyoku kata, as they are in every component of traditional karate training, here Shotokan. Here is an excellent example of mental discipline over Jose Aldo type stuff (or Royce Gracie type stuff).

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this is perfect Shotokan karate, IMHO. What that means PRINCIPE-WISE, is that this practitioner has developed the foundational mental discipline to clean Royce Gracie's clock, and hopefully Matt Hughes too...
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I've italicized a few of your statements that I have a problem with. Personally, I don't like grappling at all, and I absolutely despise groundfighting. I'm predisposed to agree with you, is what I'm trying to say. But this post of yours just doesn't make sense. How on earth is your "mental state" going to overcome strong grappling techniques? Are you saying that you have psychic powers?

That "physical grappling stuff" is remarkably successful in MMA -- if all that were required to overcome grappling was being exceptionally disciplined, then I would expect to never see grappling in the UFC, because one of the essential qualities of world-class athletes is discipline.

 

[drop bear]

I have to agree with this, I'm afraid. There's a great forum on the site reddit that is pretty good for getting some idea of what street fights can look like. It's reddit.com/r/amateurfights. Despite the fact that biting, gouging, and clawing are fairly natural motions, I don't think I've ever seen an example of someone successfully using those in the videos on that forum.

That isn't to say I agree with the general sentiment of grappling über alles, but I'm profoundly skeptical of the idea of overcoming fantastic grappling skills by hitting the grappler in the throat or gouging his eye out.

The issue is that punching is pretty effective in the street. And your uber strike has to compete in time and effectiveness. So if I have blocked a punch and thrown a shuto strike it is completely different to fending off a flurry of punches and being able to get that same shuto off.

Like knife defence. It all works untill someone does that sewing machine style attack. And then it all comes apart.

Fighters in my experience who are any good do not focus on the award winning finish. They focus on being in a position to throw strikes that limits their chance of limiting strikes.

So my fisty punches may not be fight ending super weapons but I can get them on target against guys who have pretty competent hands.

And that is the trick.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Bigger question, how many will put down their focus mitts and train karate traditionally?

Does traditional Karate training not use focus mitts?

 

[DaveB]

ShotoNoob, I understand where you're coming from and you do touch upon an important point. Many in the practical combative karate crowd do overlook many of the mental/psychological aspects of "Traditional" karate. They do so because either they are following the dogma that they have heard about what is effective or they have researched Shotokan's history and discovered that these elements were bolted on in the 1940s and 50s as a means of culturally hijacking an Okinawan fighting art with Chinese roots. Some few will have researched further and found that the ideas of bushido and zen philosophies like mushin and zanshin were themselves artificially bolted on to the Samurai practices as a means of giving purpose and a lofty standard to a warrior caste in an age of peace. When samurai actually fought wars regularly such codes and philosophies were unheard of as skill in arms was the necessity.

I myself don't dismiss this side of things because I realise that one of the purposes of some of those concepts was as a strategy to cope with one of the big realities of combat, adrenaline.

If your mind is truly clear then fear cannot cloud your actions. Anticipation can't give you tunnel vision or make you freeze if you are universally aware and distanced from the self and fully accepting of death.

However, just because these methods are old doesn't make them better than modern training techniques to combat adrenaline dump. Nor can they be seen as superior to the mental dimension of modern athletic training. (Unless the person comparing is an Olympic athlete and a zen master).

Furthermore, mindset has been much discussed by the self defense focused karateka, as a determining factor in the outcome of a violent confrontation. Despite this not many seem to place an emphasis on the use of kata for visualisation and mental exercise, though most mention other methods.

But we part ways at your belief that the mental dimension of traditional karate will win your battles for you.

 

[RafaChan]

Are you saying that you have psychic powers?

Liked your conclusion !

Regarding the advanced mental dimension of the training Shoto was venturing in ill try to help and bring some light accordingly to my experience...

Ill start using his own words that i have found very coherent and met what i have experienced tru my years of practice (not only in karate):

I don't buy all of the Shotokan body mechanics. Yet here is what I love about Shotokan. the instructor makes plain in this vid that the body works as a coordinated unit which then extends strength into the technique for power. He talkes about how the power comes from the 'core,' not isolated or emphasized in the extremities....
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How KIME or what dynamic of KIME that is powering his move is the most fundamental & essential question.
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If those wishing to use karate successfully would only take a step back from the overt physicality and delve into traditional Shotokan as demonstrated by this instructor, we'd see traditional karate fighters wiping out conventional MMA.

IMO i think when Shoto stated this hes pretty much saying that when (using your mind) you makes your body ''works as a coordinated unit which then extends strength into the technique for power'', that way you are achieving a big part of that said mental dimension and mental discipline.

That is the type of conditioning that makes you surpass and win a bigger enemy that doesnt posses any conditioning on that dimension and have worked only on the physical aspect of the conditioning.

In other words its the smaller guy hitting the bigger guy with much more power and defending from him way more effective.

Personally i have seen manny people that compete in the MA scene that gives prioritie only to the physical aspect of the conditioning discipline. Im not saying that physical conditioning for me its trash. IMO its also complementary of the mental side aspect and have the same importance.

If you doesnt dedicate a part of your training on that you are missing a big part of an art... thats why shoto said that shotokan practitioners limited by that detrimental will result in failure...

The mental discipline involves a lot of other aspects for me not only KIME, like right breathing, self control, fast responses, right usage of skills and strategies just to name a few... Unfortunelly thats really cant be passed in a more straight forward notion (unless the person its really gifted) and requires some years of dedicated training, conditioning and understandment of what you (and your body) are doing.

''Good luck with all that...''

 

[RafaChan]

I don't buy all of the Shotokan body mechanics.

Out of my curiosity could you be more specific on that please?


Other curiosity... I see you showed taikyoku shodan in one of your vids. I know superficially that kata was a more easier reading of heian shodan developed by master Gichin. Here the shotokan white belts learn only heian/pinan shodan. Personally i dont like taikyoku and i wanna know your opinion on that. TIA.

 

[RafaChan]

Movements like you've describe harken back to the Chinese kempo's, IMO. Again, there's no one stopping the truly dedicated from digging into the Shotokan curriculum.... great illustration on your part.... good luck with getting that across....
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EDIT: I have seen this technique presented in the black-belt curriculum described as a self defense application. Never in free sparring....

Manny traditional karate authorities advocate that the circular techniques like those osae and shuto uke have chinese roots so for me you are probably right on that.
I have seen something close to this move/combo on a free-sparring but was something more like a side punch. If you have the opportunitie to do you will see most people will be got by surprise coz you will hit from an unexpected angle.

 

[RafaChan]

The issue is that punching is pretty effective in the street. And your uber strike has to compete in time and effectiveness. So if I have blocked a punch and thrown a shuto strike it is completely different to fending off a flurry of punches and being able to get that same shuto off.

Like knife defence. It all works untill someone does that sewing machine style attack. And then it all comes apart.

Fighters in my experience who are any good do not focus on the award winning finish. They focus on being in a position to throw strikes that limits their chance of limiting strikes.

So my fisty punches may not be fight ending super weapons but I can get them on target against guys who have pretty competent hands.

And that is the trick.

Ofc the said tactic i exposed works as a counter attack move/intention and being very specific and by that it have to obey certain conditions to be effective and aplicable. I personally rarely trow that in free-spar but im always in position to apply that most times as part of my whole strategie (most times in free-spar and kumite i assume a counter attack position/attitude at the first moment so i can see whats my opponent using and capitalize on that later).

I know that can sounds ironic how in the world you keep that in mind if you rarely use. But from that what i call my ''fake stance'' i can develop most of my other tactics (karate develops a lot of switch stances). First condition basically is that you have to keep your front foot aligned with the front foot of the opponent (much like when you are facing a guy whos left handed - my case but in that case i fake im right handed), so you work on his jabs using the osae (hand sweep block). If you manage to be fast enough you will be able to attack in reponse while you enter or retreat with shuto. Lets say, depending of the guy, in 1 min of fight or less i can perform a move like that different than reverse and jabs fakes or not that i will be trowing regularly.

From the SD perspective its pretty usefull if you manage to hit the floating ribs (be without air for some secs), side of neck or side of jaw behind the ear...

I can see where you came from. I have practiced thai box for 2 years with some of the best around me. FromK-1 nd MMA pro level to the regular fantastic anonymous guys and also the bigger ineffective ones...I know the feeling of being inside a ring and i can tell you what i have seen/did being usefull (for me and others) on that regard and how my karate trainging have helped.

In the case of a straight flurry of attacks like you told i must admit that most karate training nowadays doesnt give responses to that coz they are so focused on the one hit ko kumite conditioning attitude. That doesnt mean that there are none schools that teach those responses in the perfect karateka way.

One of the thing that i have seen and later did (as a striker) with someone that came in with that kind of flurry of attacks and that lets them very frustraded its when you simply doesnt have to be stopped blocking or ''eating the punches'' while you pray for an open for yours attacks to connect. In a flurry of attacks the guy its very likely the guy its coming forward you in a nonstop motion, that way you simply go backwards retreating while instead of blocks you attack him back keeping your distance always (most time your head distance). In karate kumite can helps with that in the way of keep a wise distancing and timing.

If the guy its coming and never finding you he will start to get pissed and loose a lot of energy. Simply retreat (step or steps back) and attack. Shoto may be disagreeing with the backpeddaling but thats when i perform my kata (forms) backwards. All i can say thats for me its effective and i have seen being effective for others also.

Sorry for the walls of text !

 

[ShotoNoob]

I've italicized a few of your statements that I have a problem with. Personally, I don't like grappling at all, and I absolutely despise groundfighting. I'm predisposed to agree with you, is what I'm trying to say. But this post of yours just doesn't make sense. How on earth is your "mental state" going to overcome strong grappling techniques? Are you saying that you have psychic powers?

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Refer to MT T on "Mental Clarity" for a start. Otherwise, it's just T propogation....

That "physical grappling stuff" is remarkably successful in MMA -- if all that were required to overcome grappling was being exceptionally disciplined, then I would expect to never see grappling in the UFC, because one of the essential qualities of world-class athletes is discipline.

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Your thinking is just how NOT to approach Shotokan karate for self defense. You are just looking at MMA and coming to a "glittering generality" conclusion.
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Specific > Take a look @ the recent Joanna Jedrzejczyk defeat of Jessica Penne. also take a look at the anti-grappling utilized by the victor, Joanna Jedrzejczyk....
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Instead of arguing, try to develop my thesis. Otherwise, I'll put "Little Debbie" doing Shotokan karate up....

 

[ShotoNoob]

...That "physical grappling stuff" is remarkably successful in MMA -- if all that were required to overcome grappling was being exceptionally disciplined, then I would expect to never see grappling in the UFC, because one of the essential qualities of world-class athletes is discipline.

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The mental discipline as defined by traditional shotokan karate is extremely lacking in MMA....
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Again, you sound like Matt Thorton spouting off some generality that 'world class athlete's' have the essential quality of discipline...
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I'm not talking about the gumption to roll huge tractor tires all over the gym....