Shinkyokushin vs Shito ryu for self defence ?

[nirusls]

Hi I'm a guy 19yrs old. Recently my hobby is lifting weights and gaining some muscles(not for martial arts).

Also I'm interested in both shinkyokushin (what's available instead of kyokushin) and Shito ryu.

But the trouble I have between them about their way of fighting.

*Shinkyokushin goes with full contact but no face punches/and defence.

*Shito ryu does punches to the face but they are point fighting and stop fight after every attack.

Which one do you guys recommend for self defence purpose ? (I'm not planning for tournaments)

 

[Paul_D]

Neither.

Why would you learn a sports martial art that isn't designed to deal with civilian violence, in order to help you deal with civilian violence?

Sports aim their punches at general areas (head/body) as anywhere in these areas score points. However, once you start looking at punching for self defence it's a whole different ball game. Punch someone in the nose in the ring, you score a point, punch someone in the nose in the street and it may stop them, or if they are have a lot of drugs/alcohol/adrenalin in their system it may just piss them off make enrage them further. Ok so you are not entering competitions, but you will just be told to aim your punches at these general 'scoring zones" in training, not at specific areas designed to incapacitate.

There are other issue too, sport martial arts will teach you to stand directly in front of the opponent, which for civilian violence is absolute the worst possible place you can be, as if you are stood directly in front of them, they can hit you just as easily as you can hit them. Training in an art which is not sports based, or training specifically to deal with civilian violence will teach you to get off line, keeping them in your line of attack, whilst getting off their line of attack.

There are just two points, there are others, but the point is it's apples/oranges. If you want to train for sport then do a sport MA, if you want to train to deal with civilian violence, then train to deal with civilian violence.

Taking a sport martial art to deal with civilian violence is like taking table tennis lessons because you have decided to enter Wimbledon. Yeah, looks the same to the laymen, just hitting a ball over a net with a bat right? But in reality it's not.

 

[drop bear]

The kyokkushin clone should do fine. If you can get some face punching in elsewhere that would also be helpful.

 

[drop bear]

Neither.

Why would you learn a sports martial art that isn't designed to deal with civilian violence, in order to help you deal with civilian violence?

Sports aim their punches at general areas (head/body) as anywhere in these areas score points. However, once you start looking at punching for self defence it's a whole different ball game. Punch someone in the nose in the ring, you score a point, punch someone in the nose in the street and it may stop them, or if they are have a lot of drugs/alcohol/adrenalin in their system it may just piss them off make enrage them further. Ok so you are not entering competitions, but you will just be told to aim your punches at these general 'scoring zones" in training, not at specific areas designed to incapacitate.

There are other issue too, sport martial arts will teach you to stand directly in front of the opponent, which for civilian violence is absolute the worst possible place you can be, as if you are stood directly in front of them, they can hit you just as easily as you can hit them. Training in an art which is not sports based, or training specifically to deal with civilian violence will teach you to get off line, keeping them in your line of attack, whilst getting off their line of attack.

There are just two points, there are others, but the point is it's apples/oranges. If you want to train for sport then do a sport MA, if you want to train to deal with civilian violence, then train to deal with civilian violence.

Taking a sport martial art to deal with civilian violence is like taking table tennis lessons because you have decided to enter Wimbledon. Yeah, looks the same to the laymen, just hitting a ball over a net with a bat right? But in reality it's not.

That was just epic by the way.

 

[Paul_D]

That was just epic by the way.

Epic in a good way I hope, not epic as in epic-fail"

 

[kuniggety]

Where do you live? We might be able to make some recommendations for you.

Me, I won't fully put down shito-Ryu or kyokushin as you would still learn a helluva lot from them but, as stated, if your focus is self-defense then you should be studying something that follows through with its attacks to the finish.

Any grappling art: BJJ, judo, sambo, catch wrestling, etc.; full contact striking arts such as Western boxing, Muay Thai, good Krav Maga, etc.; or even MMA will do you better.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Which one do you guys recommend for self defence purpose ? (I'm not planning for tournaments)

As others mentioned, self-defense is a different animal than tournament sparring.

However, in my experience, training is not generally one thing or another thing. A style that is known for competing is not necessarily teaching only that. A style known for full-contact is not necessarily teaching only that. If it is, you need to speak to the instructors of the dojos you're looking at and explain what it is you hope to learn.

As well, there are many things applicable to self-defense that you might not think are applicable now.

Many times I have heard new students say that they don't care to learn X because X isn't applicable to doing Y. As students, all I can tell them is that they have no clue what they are talking about. Believe me, sparring helps my self-defense. Kata helps my self-defense. Basic exercises help my self-defense. But no one would know that right out of the gate; how could they?

So here is my suggestion.

Spend some time in the places where you think you are interested in training. Watch what they do; more than once; training often varies night by night. Talk to the instructors and the students. Tell them what you think you're looking for, but don't automatically turn your nose up at what you think won't give you what you seek.

Settle on the one that offers you the best fit. Train hard. You may be surprised to find that self-defense capability eventually comes your way.

Not everything is as it appears. Use your head, ask questions, be prepared to devote serious time and effort into training in whatever style you choose. Humble yourself, empty your cup, absorb what is offered. You may find what you seek, and I hope you do.

 

[elder999]

Hi I'm a guy 19yrs old. Recently my hobby is lifting weights and gaining some muscles(not for martial arts).

Also I'm interested in both shinkyokushin (what's available instead of kyokushin) and Shito ryu.

But the trouble I have between them about their way of fighting.

*Shinkyokushin goes with full contact but no face punches/and defence.

*Shito ryu does punches to the face but they are point fighting and stop fight after every attack.

Which one do you guys recommend for self defence purpose ? (I'm not planning for tournaments)

I'm just going to say that "self-defense" skills can be developed in a variety of ways, both contact and non-contact.

I also should point out that shinkyokushin is kyokushin-it's just what international Karate Organization 2 (IKO2) led by Kenji Midori, chose to call themselves in 2003 or so.....they still practice and teach the karate of Mas Oyama.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

But the trouble I have between them about their way of fighting.

*Shinkyokushin goes with full contact but no face punches/and defence.

*Shito ryu does punches to the face but they are point fighting and stop fight after every attack.

Just wanted to note that what you are describing are the tournament rules for those arts, not their approach to actual fighting. Hopefully the schools in question do more than just train for tournaments.

 

[elder999]

Just wanted to note that what you are describing are the tournament rules for those arts, not their approach to actual fighting. Hopefully the schools in question do more than just train for tournaments.

It's also pretty much how free-sparring is conducted in class-though, depending on the dojo, not all of the time....

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi I'm a guy 19yrs old. Recently my hobby is lifting weights and gaining some muscles(not for martial arts).

Also I'm interested in both shinkyokushin (what's available instead of kyokushin) and Shito ryu.

But the trouble I have between them about their way of fighting.

*Shinkyokushin goes with full contact but no face punches/and defence.

*Shito ryu does punches to the face but they are point fighting and stop fight after every attack.

Which one do you guys recommend for self defence purpose ? (I'm not planning for tournaments)

Which would I recommend? The one with the better instructor that you will continue to attend. Honestly, as others have suggested, you're trying to apply the wrong yardstick to the schools in order to make an assessment… it's like you're asking what meal is the most nutritious at two restaurants known for their desserts.

Really, if both schools are equally available to you, attend both, and make your own mind up.

 

[Hanzou]

All things being equal in terms of instruction, I would recommend Shinkyokushin. Anything derived from Kyokushin should be solid self defense wise.

 

[Chris Parker]

Why? What in Kyokushin makes it "solid self defence"? Specifically against a Shito-Ryu school? Bearing in mind that hard training, and being a "good fighter" is far from the same thing.

 

[drop bear]

Why? What in Kyokushin makes it "solid self defence"? Specifically against a Shito-Ryu school? Bearing in mind that hard training, and being a "good fighter" is far from the same thing.

They more closley aproximate fighting by using resisted training.

 

[Hanzou]

They more closley aproximate fighting by using resisted training.

Yep.

Not to mention that the Kyokushin school is full-contact even in its sport phase.

 

[Chris Parker]

They more closley aproximate fighting by using resisted training.

Yep.

Not to mention that the Kyokushin school is full-contact even in its sport phase.

Sigh…

Guys, please read the actual question. Neither of you have addressed it, nor taken on board what it actually asks. Here it is again. Note the bolded:

Why? What in Kyokushin makes it "solid self defence"? Specifically against a Shito-Ryu school? Bearing in mind that hard training, and being a "good fighter" is far from the same thing.

Care to try again?

 

[Hanzou]

Care to try again?

Again, if someone is seeking to learn self-defense from a karate dojo, I would point them towards a karate dojo that practices full contact over a karate dojo that practices point sparring. Per the OP's post, the Kyokushin school practices full contact karate, while the Shito-Ryu school does not.

IMO, the choice is clear.

 

[drop bear]

Sigh…

Guys, please read the actual question. Neither of you have addressed it, nor taken on board what it actually asks. Here it is again. Note the bolded:



Care to try again?

The training is better.so not just hard training but more relevant.

So contact training is more relevant than non contact because if someone attacks you they will probably be using contact.

This way you will have a method that you have been able to test in training that you can use in self defence.

As an example. See all of these techniques that are actually stopping an attack?

The will be able to stop an assault as well.

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh for gods sake...

Again, if someone is seeking to learn self-defense from a karate dojo, I would point them towards a karate dojo that practices full contact over a karate dojo that practices point sparring. Per the OP's post, the Kyokushin school practices full contact karate, while the Shito-Ryu school does not.

IMO, the choice is clear.

Why? What on earth does that have to do with the concept of self defence? That's the question. Fighting does not equal self defence, boys.

The training is better.so not just hard training but more relevant.

"Better" how? I'm asking specific to the requirements and contexts of self defence… so back up your statements in that context.

So contact training is more relevant than non contact because if someone attacks you they will probably be using contact.

No, you're talking about a minor area, which isn't addressed in the proper context at all. Besides which, even when it does get physical, your tactical approach should be rather different to anything you're focusing on here.

This way you will have a method that you have been able to test in training that you can use in self defence.

But test it doing what? How are you testing it for self defence? How is it geared towards it?

As an example. See all of these techniques that are actually stopping an attack?

The will be able to stop an assault as well.

Nothing in that entire clip was even close to being self defence, or addressing the needs of self defence. It was, in many ways, the exact opposite.

So, one last time, as neither of you seem to grasp what you're being asked here, what (in Kyokushin's approach over Shito Ryu's) makes it better suited to or applicable to self defence, bearing in mind that fighting is not self defence? Oh, and also bearing in mind that tournament style fighting, sparring etc is also very removed to the point that you're dealing with something almost completely alien to an actual self defence situation, so pointing to a series of tournament moments is of no use whatsoever.

 

[Hanzou]

Oh for gods sake...

Why? What on earth does that have to do with the concept of self defence? That's the question. Fighting does not equal self defence, boys.

If someone is attacking you and you throw weak punches and kicks, or you're unable to withstand blows to the body or head because you were learning point fighting instead of full contact, how are going to able to defend yourself?

The better your fighting prowess, the better you are at defending yourself if someone is attempting to do you harm.

So, one last time, as neither of you seem to grasp what you're being asked here, what (in Kyokushin's approach over Shito Ryu's) makes it better suited to or applicable to self defense, bearing in mind that fighting is not self defense?

Recently there was an article about a girl who was attacked in Australia by an assailant trying to rape her. She used her karate skills to kick and punch the guy until help arrived. Are you seriously going to argue that her ability to fight off an attacker isn't self defense?