Self-Defense???

[Argus]

No! MMA gyms teach SPORT, not SELF DEFENSE! Though you can use it on the streets against inexperienced fighters, drunk and thugs, against REAL opponents, it is USELESS! This is because the sports applications have been watered down to exclude moves that might save your life one day. All the nasty moves that could cause serious damage to your opponent is left out. You also have to take into account the fact that they fight with gloves, timers, referees and doctors on call. Sports applications fall short in reality.

I would be careful commenting about things that I haven't trained. Often, your impressions as an outsider are not very accurate. Moreover, every school, and every instructor is different. I'm sure that, just as you can find MMA guys who are very sport oriented, you can also find many who are quite aware of self defense concerns who address and train for that context.

MMA is a sport, and gyms that teach MMA do generally train for sport. There are self-defense concerns that don't exist in the sport, just as there are concerns in the sport that don't factor in to self defense. But the points you draw from this strike me as mistaken and a bit naive, respectfully! I'm also a Wing Chun guy, and haven't done MMA, and so I can't argue your points from knowledgeable perspective. But I think that, if you want to argue these points yourself, you should train MMA in addition to other arts, so you know exactly what you're talking about. I think that, if you do that, you'll both improve your Wing Chun and perspective of self-defense, as well as being able to knowledgeably address concerns about where some sports training may fall short in a self defense context.

Without first hand knowledge and experience, though, it's probably not a good idea to try to argue about any aspect of this or that art

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I would be careful commenting about things that I haven't trained. Often, your impressions as an outsider are not very accurate. Moreover, every school, and every instructor is different. I'm sure that, just as you can find MMA guys who are very sport oriented, you can also find many who are quite aware of self defense concerns who address and train for that context.

MMA is a sport, and gyms that teach MMA do generally train for sport. There are self-defense concerns that don't exist in the sport, just as there are concerns in the sport that don't factor in to self defense. But the points you draw from this strike me as mistaken and a bit naive, respectfully! I'm also a Wing Chun guy, and haven't done MMA, and so I can't argue your points from knowledgeable perspective. But I think that, if you want to argue these points yourself, you should train MMA in addition to other arts, so you know exactly what you're talking about. I think that, if you do that, you'll both improve your Wing Chun and perspective of self-defense, as well as being able to knowledgeably address concerns about where some sports training may fall short in a self defense context.

Without first hand knowledge and experience, though, it's probably not a good idea to try to argue about any aspect of this or that art

Oh come on! If we don't make sweeping generalizations about arts we have no personal experience with, then how are we supposed to start epic flame wars that stretch for 60 pages?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Whenever people think there is difference between "sport" and "SD", I always like to put up this picture.

Is this "sport" or "SD"?

 

[marques]

They [MMA techniques] can be put in for self defence purposes.

Ok... but there is a huge situational distance and a lot of work to close the gap. And self-defence is much more than fight and fitness...

SD is not a points or KO fight, is reasonable force (or no force/conflict/fight at the best).
SD is not entertainment fight, is about avoiding fighting (with intelligence) and finishing fighting (with reasonable force).
(...)

 

[marques]

Whenever people think there is difference between "sport" and "SD", I always like to put up this picture.

Is this "sport" or "SD"?

Sport event?
YES >> "sport"
NO >> SD or violence. The situation or the judge will decide...

 

[drop bear]

Ok... but there is a huge situational distance and a lot of work to close the gap. And self-defence is much more than fight and fitness...

SD is not a points or KO fight, is reasonable force (or no force/conflict/fight at the best).
SD is not entertainment fight, is about avoiding fighting (with intelligence) and finishing fighting (with reasonable force).
(...)

And you think those options are not part of a sporting system?

 

[MaxRob]

Self defense I agree with many above is highly situational.
As a result experience twards avoidance of conflict and awareness plays a magior role.
When it comes to the inevitable conflict you may win or loose, this is best avoided.

 

[Danny T]

No! MMA gyms teach SPORT, not SELF DEFENSE! Though you can use it on the streets against inexperienced fighters, drunk and thugs, against REAL opponents, it is USELESS! This is because the sports applications have been watered down to exclude moves that might save your life one day. All the nasty moves that could cause serious damage to your opponent is left out. You also have to take into account the fact that they fight with gloves, timers, referees and doctors on call. Sports applications fall short in reality.

Not able to agree with you here sir.
Several 'MMA' gyms/training centers in my area who do teach self-defense with in their training. My school have an amateur and professional fighter programs for Muay Thai and MMA. Twice a month we do self-defense scenario training. The individuals are very intelligent and they know the differences in sport and self defensive actions.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

SD is not a points or KO fight, is reasonable force (or no force/conflict/fight at the best).

If your opponent tries to knock you out, will it be better to knock him out first? To be kind to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself. Self-defense or not, when you decide to fight, you still have to act like a tiger and eat your opponent alive.

The best enemy is the enemy who no longer be able to bother you.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

There numerous threads concerning self-defense with most all on fighting, fighting back, and/or about one system being better vs some other system.
But what is self-defense? Is it fighting or is it much more? Most all MA schools, gyms...etc claim to teach self-defense; do they?
What is self-defense???

My understanding of self defense is pretty basic... if someone attacks you, defend yourself non violently if possible, if not, hurt that person to the extent that he/she is no longer capable of hurting you. I got robbed at gunpoint several years ago, the dude had a rifle and he was standing 8 feet away. I could have been the best martial artist in the world, but still not able to dodge bullets. Self defense can involve mace, it can involve tazers, and it can involve knives and guns. Yes, different martial arts schools claim to teach self defense, and most of them do... to varying degree. Of all the martial arts, I think Krav Maga may be the best for self defense on the street. Interestingly, despite its dominance in the octagon, Brazilian Jiujitsu has its weaknesses on the street. If the only martial art you know is BJJ, and you get attacked by multiple people, you're f***ed. Plus if someone wanted to fight dirty like say, grab your balls, they may be able to counter your attempt for a submission hold. In the Octagon, grappling martial arts dominate, but on the street, striking martial arts are usually the best way to go. Of course, this is all just my opinion I am not a martial arts expert.

 

[Tez3]

In the Octagon, grappling martial arts dominate,

If you only watch one promotion the UFC you may think that perhaps, however in many fights it's equal between striking and grappling and in even more fights it doesn't actually go to ground. It depends on individual fighters. I'm very wary of finding correlation between what happens in MMA fights and what happens in self defence situations.

 

[Danny T]

In the Octagon, grappling martial arts dominate,

You should do some research. Take a good look at the persons who are in the champion positions as well as those who are the top contenders you may well be surprised to find most are strikers and are winning by striking. This is not to say they don't grapple for they do but most are winning not by grappling but striking. Many grapplers are utilizing much more striking in their game. In the UFC of the champions only 4 have won their last fights by grappling. The other 6 have won by striking or a combination of both. Only 4 grappling submissions of the present champions of the octagon.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

You should do some research. Take a good look at the persons who are in the champion positions as well as those who are the top contenders you may well be surprised to find most are strikers and are winning by striking. This is not to say they don't grapple for they do but most are winning not by grappling but striking. Many grapplers are utilizing much more striking in their game. In the UFC of the champions only 4 have won their last fights by grappling. The other 6 have won by striking or a combination of both. Only 4 grappling submissions of the present champions of the octagon.

yeah I'm no expert on UFC haven't watched it in a while. maybe grappling doesn't always dominate, but from what i've seen, if a grappler takes down someone who doesn't have any grappling skills, the fight is over

 

[Steve]

I'd really caution everyone to avoid drawing any real conclusions about striking vs grappling in professional MMA. At the professional level, particularly when you're talking about guys at the elite level of the UFC, they are all above average strikers AND grapplers. While some are better than others in a particular area, it's relative to a group of elite level athletes who are all above average.

As a result, you can't say that grappling or striking dominates. Strikers are also grapplers, and vice versa. May not have started out that way as a base, but that's where they all end up. Anyone seen Rhonda Rousey's striking lately?

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

I'd really caution everyone to avoid drawing any real conclusions about striking vs grappling in professional MMA. At the professional level, particularly when you're talking about guys at the elite level of the UFC, they are all above average strikers AND grapplers. While some are better than others in a particular area, it's relative to a group of elite level athletes who are all above average.

As a result, you can't say that grappling or striking dominates. Strikers are also grapplers, and vice versa. May not have started out that way as a base, but that's where they all end up. Anyone seen Rhonda Rousey's striking lately?

I agree with what you say for the most part, but aren't there people who only strike, and people who only grapple? I saw a match between a kick boxer and another guy, and the announcer said the kick boxer had no grappling skills. he lost due to a submission grab btw. but i don't want to get back into that, i'm not trying to say that striking is weak or something. i mean my martial art is Taekwondo, a striking martial art, although there is some grappling in TKD, the emphasis is most definitely on striking, or kicking in the case of TKD (although we do a lot more punching than most people would think a TKD dojang does)

 

[Dirty Dog]

yeah I'm no expert on UFC haven't watched it in a while. maybe grappling doesn't always dominate, but from what i've seen, if a grappler takes down someone who doesn't have any grappling skills, the fight is over

And if a striker pounds on someone with no striking skills, the fight is over.

Balance... it's a great idea...

 

[Danny T]

In the Octagon, grappling martial arts dominate,

In post #70 you stated the above.
The only MMA organization that uses the Octagon is the UFC. They own the exclusive rights to "The Octagon" and the eight-sided cage design are registered trademarks, trademarks, trade dress or service marks owned exclusively by Zuffa. So when you say Octagon in reference to MMA you are referencing UFC.

yeah I'm no expert on UFC haven't watched it in a while. maybe grappling doesn't always dominate, but from what i've seen, if a grappler takes down someone who doesn't have any grappling skills, the fight is over

But you stated this about someone in the UFC and in the Octagon. There are no fighters in that level of fighting without good grappling or striking skills.

I agree with what you say for the most part, but aren't there people who only strike, and people who only grapple?

Again the context of the conversation at this point is about the UFC. At the level one must be to compete in an UFC event the fighter has very good striking and grappling skills. Not just one or the other.

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

In post #70 you stated the above.
The only MMA organization that uses the Octagon is the UFC. They own the exclusive rights to "The Octagon" and the eight-sided cage design are registered trademarks, trademarks, trade dress or service marks owned exclusively by Zuffa. So when you say Octagon in reference to MMA you are referencing UFC.

But you stated this about someone in the UFC and in the Octagon. There are no fighters in that level of fighting without good grappling or striking skills.

Again the context of the conversation at this point is about the UFC. At the level one must be to compete in an UFC event the fighter has very good striking and grappling skills. Not just one or the other.

I thought WEC also used an Octagon

In post #70 you stated the above.
The only MMA organization that uses the Octagon is the UFC. They own the exclusive rights to "The Octagon" and the eight-sided cage design are registered trademarks, trademarks, trade dress or service marks owned exclusively by Zuffa. So when you say Octagon in reference to MMA you are referencing UFC.

But you stated this about someone in the UFC and in the Octagon. There are no fighters in that level of fighting without good grappling or striking skills.

Again the context of the conversation at this point is about the UFC. At the level one must be to compete in an UFC event the fighter has very good striking and grappling skills. Not just one or the other.

Yes, I already knew that the Octagon is the arena for UFC. From the fights I've watched, and this is just my opinion, it seems to me that every fighter in UFC has his specialty, (yes i'm aware that UFC fighters usually have at least 3-4 black belts) but to me it seems like they all their specialty. Often times from the fights i've seen the announcers will comment on which martial arts the fighters truly excel at. I remember watching one fight with a guy whose specialty was boxing, and he beat the other guy into a pulp. That is one example that pops into my mind. but i do not know as much about UFC as you or a lot of people on this site so maybe i'm completely in the wrong idk

 

[sinthetik_mistik]

cancel what i said about WEC using the octagon, i don't even know if that organization still exists

 

[Danny T]

cancel what i said about WEC using the octagon, i don't even know if that organization still exists

The WEC began in 2001 and used a pentagonal cage. Was purchased by the Zuffa in 2006 and did use a modified (smaller) octagon until 2010 when the WEC was merged with the UFC.