Self Defense System vs Friend? (non-malicious attacker)

[James Smith]

I'm going to be attending university starting in late August. The university has a club called Green Dragon Kung Fu (my friends are already jokingly making fun of me for "thinking about joining the villain dojo from The Karate Kid") where a form called White Lotus is used. From research it seems like this is not an official system/style but a name that various teachers use to make their system "sound cool." The system advertised is supposed to be female in nature because it focuses on self defense via finger strength by teaching nerve strikes and disabling moves like attempting to dig out eyes or tear off ears.

My question from the title is: What systems are there that I could use to fend off a friend or someone 'play fighting'? Obviously I don't want to severely injure a friend messing around with me so I was just curious about a system for stopping or controlling incoming attacks without trying to maim the other person, if this question even makes sense. Sorry.

EDIT: This is a demo of White Lotus (

) but animal forms are taught at the school as well. Oh and does anyone have any personal experiences or have heard of Sifu John R Allen? Thanks again!

 

[Ceicei]

Does your university have a judo or jujitsu club or class? That may be something to meet your criteria of learning how to physically control without causing serious harm.

Ceicei

 

[James Smith]

I've heard of Judo will look into if the university has a club! I don't really want to study Jujitsu because (this will probably offend someone I'm sorry) there are so many guys walking around with Tapout t-shirts in bars trying to act really macho and talking non-stop about UFC, it is just a clash with my personality. I'm sure there are people practicing Jujitsu for reasons other than wanting to be a cage fighter but in my area, Jujitsu clubs/gyms attract the people I naturally don't get along with.

 

[Chris Parker]

Blunt honesty? If it's a good system, it won't really be good for mucking around with friends. And if it's good for mucking around with friends, it's not a self defence orientated system. There are many reasons for this, by the way.

 

[Tez3]

I've heard of Judo will look into if the university has a club! I don't really want to study Jujitsu because (this will probably offend someone I'm sorry) there are so many guys walking around with Tapout t-shirts in bars trying to act really macho and talking non-stop about UFC, it is just a clash with my personality. I'm sure there are people practicing Jujitsu for reasons other than wanting to be a cage fighter but in my area, Jujitsu clubs/gyms attract the people I naturally don't get along with.

Hint...the guys in Tapout Tshirts and talking about the UFC don't train anything, don't fight and know bugger all. If they call themselves a 'cagefighter' then they aren't, we do MMA not 'cagefighting'.

Where are you going to uni? That would help people advise you on what to try out.

 

[WC_lun]

A good kung fu system will have controling via chin na. Do not mistake "controlling" for weak. Chin na can be very painful and do incredible amounts of damage to the human body if taken far enough. If a kung fu system does not have controlling techniques and/or teaches ONLY things that are dangerous to use, I would not even give them a second glance. They are not a real CMA system and more importantly, not a real self defense system. You MUST be able to practice what you use under the stress of real resisting opponents or you will never know if you are learning correctly. Once basic, solid, reliable concpets and principles are learned, then it becomes a much easier to do things that can cause serious damage. Relying on pressure points and such things as eye gouges for a beginner as reliable self defense methods is seriously bad.

As far as using your martial arts to play around with your friends, don't do it. Chris is right in that martial arts, even sporting martial arts, can seriously hurt a person. A bad fall, a limb bent at slightly the wrong angle, a hold held slightly too long, etc can have terrible consequences as a result of just messing around. A better route would be grow a bit thicker skin and don't let a friend goad you into doing something stupid.

 

[Chris Parker]

Not exactly what I meant....

When "mucking around" with friends, you often have to omit what is needed for the techniques to work properly. You have to omit softening strikes, for instance, as well as having to deal with rather different "resistance" than an actual assault would give. As such, techniques that are designed to have a realistic application are not really available (in the true sense) in such situations. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't do anything with friends... but I will say that my friends pretty quickly learn not to ask.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What systems are there that I could use to fend off a friend or someone 'play fighting'?

Your best bet for this purpose is some grappling system with a freestyle, sportive component. Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, or Sambo will all give you the capacity to take someone down and pin them without necessarily hurting them. (These systems can also be useful in real self-defense situations as well, although the application may be a bit different.)

BTW - Tez is right, the odds are that most of the guys you see wearing their Tapout shirts and talking tough in bars are not actually training jujutsu.

 

[oftheherd1]

A good kung fu system will have controling via chin na. Do not mistake "controlling" for weak. Chin na can be very painful and do incredible amounts of damage to the human body if taken far enough. If a kung fu system does not have controlling techniques and/or teaches ONLY things that are dangerous to use, I would not even give them a second glance. They are not a real CMA system and more importantly, not a real self defense system. You MUST be able to practice what you use under the stress of real resisting opponents or you will never know if you are learning correctly. Once basic, solid, reliable concpets and principles are learned, then it becomes a much easier to do things that can cause serious damage. Relying on pressure points and such things as eye gouges for a beginner as reliable self defense methods is seriously bad.

As far as using your martial arts to play around with your friends, don't do it. Chris is right in that martial arts, even sporting martial arts, can seriously hurt a person. A bad fall, a limb bent at slightly the wrong angle, a hold held slightly too long, etc can have terrible consequences as a result of just messing around. A better route would be grow a bit thicker skin and don't let a friend goad you into doing something stupid.

Worth repeating. The only people you should "play around" with are your dojang mates, and then as controlled by your teacher.

Don't let friends goad you into showing what you can do. Typically, they are out to prove they are better, and the more you frustrate them, the more they will try to win, and require you to do something hurtful or damaging.

Frankly, I wouldn't consider them friends anyway it they continue to pursue that course of action. That, or you need to be more emphatic about not "playing" with them.

EDIT: I second Tony Dismukes on looking for a grappling art, but AFIK, most King Fu has a lot of grappling. A Kung Fu practitioner can correct me if I am wrong. I could add Hapkido to his list as that is my art.

The main thing you want is a good, properly taught art, with a good teacher. There really isn't a best art if you are wondering. Some do some things better, or just fit the body or mind set if different people, so they become the best for that person. If you have the chance, you need to find one that fits you best at a good school. That is the hardest part.

 

[punisher73]

Any good system should be able to instruct you in different levels of force and how to deal with them. So you would learn techniques to use when your "drunk friend" keeps trying to see how tough you are all the way up to someone really attempting to cause serious injury and/or death. But, as with all things, the "playfighting" with your friend is not a good idea. Too many things can go wrong and turn into a real deal because of ego.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Blunt honesty? If it's a good system, it won't really be good for mucking around with friends. And if it's good for mucking around with friends, it's not a self defence orientated system. There are many reasons for this, by the way.

Actually one reason: you can't use a system, you can't practice. Whoa upon edit I misread your post. If you can't play with your buddies you need a better Art. Sorry.
Sean

 

[shesulsa]

Any good system should be able to instruct you in different levels of force and how to deal with them. So you would learn techniques to use when your "drunk friend" keeps trying to see how tough you are all the way up to someone really attempting to cause serious injury and/or death. But, as with all things, the "playfighting" with your friend is not a good idea. Too many things can go wrong and turn into a real deal because of ego.

This. I'm a fan of contain-and-control techniques and systems that have a good portion of curriculum on this aspect of fighting arts. It's good for police and anyone who may need to learn ... well, pain compliance.

No matter what you train, however, you will need to ask the instructor (if it is not readily offered to you as part and parcel of regular instruction) about the concept of "control." You will need to practice all levels of control regularly.

Good luck!

 

[James Smith]

Okay thanks a bunch for clearing up misconceptions. The points about teaching something extremely harmful to beginners not being a good approach makes sense. I would not be able to practice/spar if the only techniques possible are ones that would put someone in the hospital. The university is Kent State University. Their biggest Martial Arts club is called Green Dragon Kung Fu (http://www.greendragonkungfu.com) and is taught by Sifu John R Allen. In their pictures on their facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Green-Dragon-Kung-Fu-Club/25008813989) I've seen pictures with weapons handling and one of the forms was called White Lotus but I don't know if it was the same as the video I linked with heavyset Asian instructor because the video I originally linked was the first youtube result for 'white lotus.' I have not looked into what the smaller MA clubs are at the university but any more input regarding opinions of the website or personal experiences with the club/Sifu would be appreciated.

EDIT: Check over this page http://www.greendragonkungfu.com/recommendations.asp and tell me if you agree with his recommended forms based on experience level. I have no idea what any of the forms mean and if that is the proper order to learn.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

This. I'm a fan of contain-and-control techniques and systems that have a good portion of curriculum on this aspect of fighting arts. It's good for police and anyone who may need to learn ... well, pain compliance.

I'm actually not a huge fan of pain compliance techniques. They have their place, but they're not that reliable. A good wrestler/judoka/BJJer can control an opponent through the manipulation of balance, application of leverage, placement of weight, and the use of good body structure, without relying on pain to enforce compliance. In my experience, that approach is much more reliable.

 

[Sukerkin]

As far as using your martial arts to play around with your friends, don't do it.


Such good advice from WC that it was worth putting in big, bold, font . Fortunately for me, in my Kung Fu days, my close friends were also training at the same school so it wasn't really an issue; we weren't play-fighting, we were practising :lol:

 

[K-man]

Blunt honesty? If it's a good system, it won't really be good for mucking around with friends. And if it's good for mucking around with friends, it's not a self defence orientated system. There are many reasons for this, by the way.

In principle this is right but as WC lun said, a complete system will give various degrees of response ranging from simple deflection to all out destruction. Chin Na is a very good suggestion and seeing there is a Kung Fu club available, I would be there like a shot.

But the other point is also very important to remember. A little knowledge can get you into a lot of trouble, and there can be a lot of alcohol fueled situations at University. Enjoy your opportunity. :asian:

 

[pgsmith]

If I remember correctly, Kent State has an aikido club. Aikido is an art where you can thump your friend's face in the dirt without hurting him too much.

 

[WC_lun]

I'm actually not a huge fan of pain compliance techniques. They have their place, but they're not that reliable. A good wrestler/judoka/BJJer can control an opponent through the manipulation of balance, application of leverage, placement of weight, and the use of good body structure, without relying on pain to enforce compliance. In my experience, that approach is much more reliable.

This is true of any good kung fu system as well. This describes good chin na more than just pain compliance.

 

[James Smith]

Thanks for the helpful advice and replies once again. I found out that the university does not have Judo or Aikido but if Chin Na is part of Kung Fu that is similar then that will be pretty neat. I'm not very strong but I have good muscle tone so trying a MA that is force meets force would not work good for me. I will research Chin Na now.

 

[Gentle Fist]

Hint...the guys in Tapout Tshirts and talking about the UFC don't train anything, don't fight and know bugger all. If they call themselves a 'cagefighter' then they aren't, we do MMA not 'cagefighting'.

Where are you going to uni? That would help people advise you on what to try out.

You mean learning jujutsu from YouTube to impress your friends doesn't count?