Secrecy in Kung Fu Today/ arrogance in MA's

clfsean

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It's kind of like making a proper noren ramen.

The right dashi is important, but without fresh dry kombu you're not going to get the right flavor.

Once you have the right flavor, you can send out your noren ramen ninjas to fan out your killer broth in total secrecy.

If none of this makes any sense, it's because I wrote it down rather than drew a decent picture of what I meant. Because I stink at drawing, the only way someone else will understand me is through their own experience with noren ramen.
Curtain ramen??
 

mograph

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Interesting discussion. My experience?
  • my teacher is one of those "backyard" guys, except in community centers, or church basements.
  • he doesn't speak much English. I should really learn Cantonese (yes, the devil-talk, Xue Sheng!)
  • but he gets a good turnout at his birthday banquets. Lots of old martial artists of many styles, occasionally, they do demos, which is great.
  • he teaches xingyi, weapons, zhan zhuang, ba shr, yiquan, but he's a lineage guy for mizongquan.
  • he occasionally shows us applications, but none of us expect to get into a fight.
  • his TCM specialty is bone-setting.
  • he won't teach you if you're an a-hole or unstable. He might not want people who look for fights.
  • the more dedicated you are, the more attention he gives you.
  • he doesn't explain stuff very much because his English isn't very good, but he also knows the value of a student's discovering something through deliberate practice rather than words.
  • his classes are pay what you can.
  • we show up in street clothes.
  • 99.9% of the time, I'm the only Anglo guy there.
So ... we don't really have a club, but you'd never know about the guy unless you were already in the community, or knew someone. It's not about being "oooh -- secret," more about being low-key. I think there are a lot of styles that aren't secretive, they're just not popular. Is Yiquan secretive? Nope -- it's just boring, with all that standing!
 
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isshinryuronin

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I had gotten to a point where I thought everyone was guilty of something.
And you were right! But whether against the law or not is another story.

EDIT - On a more serious note, when you are immersed in a particular environment, your perception and "hard wiring" adapt to the stimuli of that environment. In prehistoric times, likely early man saw every stranger an enemy, and when in doubt, club first, grunt questions later and every sound one of approaching danger. When in a battle zone, especially when combatants don't wear uniforms, or crime ridden streets where any kid may have a gun in his waistband, this default interpretation of danger can be a lifesaver.

In caveman days, this was OK since the environment they lived in was consistent over time, so their mindset of threat could be consistent as well. But in our world, military and LE must transist back and forth between different environments (LE on a daily basis). This is where the stress comes in - changing behavioral responses to fit multiple environments. It's a lot of work, and a skill few can do well over time.

Those who have not experienced this difficulty, not only having to be on high threat alert, but to turn it off and rewire yourself for "off duty" life and its proper responses, only to turn it on again later, cannot appreciate its long term effects. I think MA training helps most of us civilians do this kind of thing a bit better.
 
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Steve

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I thought everyone loves puppies. I didn't post a cat for obvious reasons. Cats offend some people.
:) When you post a picture of a puppy and say things like the above, it communicates that you don't understand and also that you don't care to understand. Which is cool. If you're ever interested in learning a little more, there are some folks around who have information to share.

In the meantime, I like puppies and kittens.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Are you involved in interrogation training as well?

I should have added this to my previous post. I went to two interrogating training classes back in my LEO days. The first I would say was basic awareness training and recognizing common sense visual cues.
The second class went much deeper into facial recognitions, body ticks, posture, and physical changes.
It was a real eye opener for me.

This reminds me of why I got ot of LE. I realized I had gotten to a point where I thought everyone was guilty of something. If I met you for the first time I was immediately sizing you up to figure out what you had done wrong. I did not like that within myself.
I already had/have a natural, driven tendency to 'figure things out'. A problem solver to a fault so to speak.
No, I've never been involved in that kind of thing.
 

Gerry Seymour

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See? You lost me about a sentence in. Too wordy and confusing, your rambling thoughts. You could have made this point with a single sentence, or none at all. You didn't have time to write a short letter, so you wrote a long one instead.

The Flower Sermon required no words. I don't need to write even a short essay on it. I could, but I won't. Talk about a kung fu secret.
That's a letter to you? As for the "none at all", that communicates absolutely nothing, so, uh....nope.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Body language involves every sense, and it can transmit right through the keyboard and screen. You said it yourself.

Proof. I could have posted yet another lotus, but you got a puppy for the holidays.

View attachment 27709
Love the puppy!

But no, it doesn't transmit through the screen/keyboard. We infer it - too often incorrectly - from the words, the situational context, and our experience with the person and similar situations. Most of that is about what's going on in the recipient's head, rather than necessarily about what the sender intended.
 

Xue Sheng

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Interesting discussion. My experience?
  • my teacher is one of those "backyard" guys, except in community centers, or church basements.
  • he doesn't speak much English. I should really learn Cantonese (yes, the devil-talk, Xue Sheng!)
  • but he gets a good turnout at his birthday banquets. Lots of old martial artists of many styles, occasionally, they do demos, which is great.
  • he teaches xingyi, weapons, zhan zhuang, ba shr, yiquan, but he's a lineage guy for mizongquan.
  • he occasionally shows us applications, but none of us expect to get into a fight.
  • his TCM specialty is bone-setting.
  • he won't teach you if you're an a-hole or unstable. He might not want people who look for fights.
  • the more dedicated you are, the more attention he gives you.
  • he doesn't explain stuff very much because his English isn't very good, but he also knows the value of a student's discovering something through deliberate practice rather than words.
  • his classes are pay what you can.
  • we show up in street clothes.
  • 99.9% of the time, I'm the only Anglo guy there.
So ... we don't really have a club, but you'd never know about the guy unless you were already in the community, or knew someone. It's not about being "oooh -- secret," more about being low-key. I think there are a lot of styles that aren't secretive, they're just not popular. Is Yiquan secretive? Nope -- it's just boring, with all that standing!

There are a number of old Chinese guys teaching that do not advertise, you need to know someone who knows someone. Is it secret? No. But there is an old Chinese saying that says the nail that stands up, gets pounded down, so not calling attention to themselves may be cultural. It also may be they don't want guys showing up causing problems too.

There was a great Yiquan teacher in NYC I found that was that way...but he passed away shortly after I found out he existed. I believe there is another in Boston and the one I had some minor experience with, who is in NYC, as far as I know, never advertised much either. My Yang Shifu is only found if you know someone in the class or happen to be a member of the community center he teaches at.... but he speaks English, Mandarin, Cantonese and Shanghainese. He also has a class someplace that is all Chinese as well. And all that is paid goes to the centers he is teaching in, he takes none of it.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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There are a number of old Chinese guys teaching that do not advertise, you need to know someone who knows someone. Is it secret? No. But there is an old Chinese saying that says the nail that stands up, gets pounded down, so not calling attention to themselves may be cultural. It also may be they don't want guys showing up causing problems too.

There was a great Yiquan teacher in NYC I found that was that way...but he passed away shortly after I found out he existed. I believe there is another in Boston and the one I had some minor experience with, who is in NYC, as far as I know, never advertised much either. My Yang Shifu is only found if you know someone in the class or happen to be a member of the community center he teaches at.... but he speaks English, Mandarin, Cantonese and Shanghainese. He also has a class someplace that is all Chinese as well. And all that is paid goes to the centers he is teaching in, he takes none of it.
Sifu Woo and Sifu Gale did little to no advertising in my day. Word of mouth was how 90% found us. Sifu Woo was well known in the Chinese community so some came in that way. Sifu James Ibrao and Sifu Leo Whang of Tien Long Pai were also students of Sifu James Wing Woo. Sifu Woos Kwoon was in his backyard in Hollywood.
 

Steve

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It's such a devious secret. You can't Google it, but it's out there. Everywhere.

If I tell it you might never hear from me again.

Ramen Mafia, dude.
That sounds ominous. :D

No, I've never been involved in that kind of thing.
In addition to a boat load of training and practical use of a lot of the communications tools and such that I'm sure are very similar to what you teach and use, I've also taken and used some stuff from Wicklander Zulawski, which is specifically about interviewing subjects who are part of investigations (either criminal or HR related). That said, my wife is the interrogator in the house. She is a great resource for me on the subject.
 
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Gerry Seymour

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That sounds ominous. :D


In addition to a boat load of training and practical use of a lot of the communications tools and such that I'm sure are very similar to what you teach and use, I've also taken and used some stuff from Wicklander Zulawski, which is specifically about interviewing subjects who are part of investigations (either criminal or HR related). That said, my wife is the interrogator in the house. She is a great resource for me on the subject.
It sounds interesting, for sure. It'd be worth dipping into if I ever get the chance, just to see how some of the other principles relate to that context.
 

Steve

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It sounds interesting, for sure. It'd be worth dipping into if I ever get the chance, just to see how some of the other principles relate to that context.
I think the principles are much the same. There is a process that is really interesting. Interviewing people for things like HR investigations (e.g., allegations of sexual harassments, discrimination, HWE) is as much about the method as it is about skills and techniques. Interviews for needs based benefits is another area where having strong interviewing skills is essential. I don't know how similar this would be (skills-wise) to LEOs interrogations process, but outside of that, the skills and such are broadly applicable and really useful.
 

Paul Calugaru

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If you arent happy with your training, then you should go do something else. It sounds like TCMA just isnt a good match for you. That is an easy solution.
That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time...

Umm.. I'm 55... been practicing Xingyiquan since I was 16 thank you ... you made my day)
1638926154765.png
 

Flying Crane

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That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time...

Umm.. I'm 55... been practicing Xingyiquan since I was 16 thank you ... you made my day)
View attachment 27710
Actually, you just made my day. I expected you hadnt trained TCMA at all, but just wanted to criticize and ridicule as an outsider who knows nothing about it other than it isnt commonly seen in MMA. I am glad to be wrong in this case.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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For

- None CMA, a punch is just a punch.
- CMA, a punch can be a punch followed by a grab and pull.

Which method is better and more advance?

For

- None CMA, a kick is just a kick.
- CMA, a kick can be a kick, close distance, or just to set up a punch.

Which method is better and more advance?
 

Dirty Dog

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For

- None CMA, a punch is just a punch.
- CMA, a punch can be a punch followed by a grab and pull.

Which method is better and more advance?

For

- None CMA, a kick is just a kick.
- CMA, a kick can be a kick, close distance, or just to set up a punch.

Which method is better and more advance?
Both examples are meaningless. Because they start with an incorrect statement about non-CMA.
 
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