Scruples

[Miles]

It's a "buyers beware" world out there. There are many legitimate (and illegitimate) State/National/World championships. Besides, using it for marketing purposes may backfire if you are a phony or if the championships were of questionable stature. As Clint Eastwood said, "he's a legend in his own mind." The ruse may work for a little while, but people catch on after time.

Miles

 

[Mark70Z]

Thanks for your view on the XMA and why, in your view, it's counter productive. I guess once it comes to your area, will you teach it even though you think it's negative to their learning traditional TKD?

I agree with TigerWoman concerning humility. I believe that humilty and the pride of life are opposites. I take wearing a uniform with these accomplishments posted all across the back lacks humility, in my mind. Shu.. Why are you on the fence as far as championship uniforms? Why would you feel weird wearing it? Of course this may be offensive to some in the ATA, but I also feel the Grand Master, and all the others wearing all those bright colored gi's is also lacking humility in my book.

 

[Shu2jack]

I agree with TigerWoman concerning humility. I believe that humilty and the pride of life are opposites. I take wearing a uniform with these accomplishments posted all across the back lacks humility, in my mind. Shu.. Why are you on the fence as far as championship uniforms? Why would you feel weird wearing it? Of course this may be offensive to some in the ATA, but I also feel the Grand Master, and all the others wearing all those bright colored gi's is also lacking humility in my book.

I personally feel that there is nothing wrong with pride, as long as one does not take it too far. Just like anything else in life. Be proud of what you acheive, but be humble about it. Someone may earn a World Champ title and they can, and should, be proud of that. They put in the time, sweat, blood, and sacrifice to earn it. However, they need to realize that there is always someone better and that title is not the end-all, be all.


I am on the fence with the uniforms because of that. I personally would not wear the championship uniform, but I would want my students to wear one. I want to recognize their acheivements and their hard work. To me, they won't be saying "I am a bad ***", but rather "with my hard work and dedication, this is what I can accomplish". When I spar against a World Champion, I don't think he is bragging, but when I see that uniform I know he is a serious student, hard worker, and is dedicated.

As for the ATA colored gi's, those are only for the ceremonies. When working out, teaching, or otherwise they wear the same exact uniform that I, a 2nd degree, wear. Plain white uniform with 4 judging cheverons, instructor collar, ATA patch on the chest, and bb/MC patches on the side. I have no problem with the colored uniforms for our ceremonies because it distinguishs the level of mastership of our art. It has nothing to do with lack of humility- it is to show a seperation of rank and knowledge.

And no, I will not be teaching XMA, for reasons that I stated. Even if I wanted to, I don't practice those "fancy" techniques to the degree to get THAT good at them. Heck, when I spar I don't attempt any jump kicks, 1 or 2 spin kicks, and a handful of high kicks. It isn't that I can't do them, it is just that in 15 years everyone I compete against won't be able to do them "well", myself included. I just stick with what I will be able to do well my entire life.

 

[Mark70Z]

"I personally feel that there is nothing wrong with pride, as long as one does not take it too far. Just like anything else in life. Be proud of what you acheive, but be humble about it."

I guess this is where we would seperate paths. I don't agree at all with there is nothing wrong with pride. I think you may want to look up the definition of pride. It equates to haughty, conceit, arrogant attitude or behavior, inordinate self esteem, which in my book are all negative. It's my view that humble would be the direct opposite of those having pride and if you are proud, then you would not be defined as humble, and would be unable to be humble. If you read the Bible, read Proverbs 11:2, and 16:18, and read the verses around it so it's not taken out of context.

I'd disagree about the ceremonies also. I can see you have no problem with it, so I wont go into detail of my reasons for dislike of these cermemonies, but of course pride would be a part of my reasoning.

 

[terryl965]

Here goes two cents wroth > Pride is one thing posting outrages claims is another. My childern have trophies and medals claiming to be this and that national champion as I explain to them you are the champion that day at that tournament you are only a champion for 10 minutes then reality has to set in, they are 10,7,6 years old and they understand. Out rages claim are so balloon these days with so many tournaments, half the time the child only has 1 fight or no-one in ther division so that makes them a champ HARDLY!!, for that day at that time. Anyway to be a true champion in my eyes are the ones that keep coming back day after day and putting there body through a work-out not playing for half the class. Humility has all but left the sport aspect of MA, Only a few can have the confidence to say I'm not GOD I do not know everything, maybe one day the Art will come back to the sport and the sport will indolge in the Art, until then I'll teach those that wish to learn the sport and keep teaching the Art to those that would like to learn........... GOD BLESS AMERICA ( and by the way I learn everyday so I do not know it all ) 42 years in the MA and still learning just a humble student of the Art.

 

[Adept]

I think you may want to look up the definition of pride. It equates to haughty, conceit, arrogant attitude or behavior, inordinate self esteem, which in my book are all negative.

Pride, in the dictionary, has several definitions. The ones we need to concern ourselves with are:

1 - High (or too high) opinion of ones own dignity, importance, worth, etc.

2 - Pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done or gained.

3 - To be pleased with oneself because of some achievement, etc.

When I use the term pride, I refer to the second and third definitions. You use the first. I would definately seperate pride from arrogance. It is okay, in my book, to be proud of yourself, or of something you have done. It is wrong to be arrogant. It is possible to be proud and to be humble.

 

[Mark70Z]

Adebt...I would disagree with you also. I do not think it's possible to be proud (the original definition of the word) and humble at the same time. Remember the first listed is the main definition, the others are secondary terms.

What's your view on wearing uniforms with State, National, or World Champion posted on the back of the gi?

 

[Adept]

Adebt...I would disagree with you also. I do not think it's possible to be proud (the original definition of the word) and humble at the same time. Remember the first listed is the main definition, the others are secondary terms.

There is no need to disagree. There are nine definitions of pride in my dictionary, which include the most successful time or state (In the pride of manhood, for example) and a pride of lions, or to be in pride of place. They arent main and secondary terms, just different. When I say pride, when I say I am proud of myself, I mean that I am happy or satisfied with myself or my achievments.

What's your view on wearing uniforms with State, National, or World Champion posted on the back of the gi?

It seems a little concieted and arrogant to me. Like they feel the achievement is so important that everyone should know about it. I feel the same way about people who get their names embroidered on their belts, to a certain extent. It gives off an image that they consider themselves so important that everyone should know their name. It would be like wearing a name-tag to work everyday (assuming one isn't already required in your workplace). On the other hand, it sometimes comes in handy when you bump into someone you've met, but whose name you have forgotten.

 

[Shu2jack]

Mark, I have also seen different definitions of "pride" such as:

" b: a reasonable or justifiable self-respect c : delight or elation arising from some act, possession, or relationship <parental pride> "

I strongly agree with letter "b" in the definition I give, and it is found in a dictionary. I see many kids who do not take pride in who they are or the accomplishments they earn. I used to be the same way as a kid. I also notice that these kids also tend to have lower self-esteem than other kids their age and some get picked on in school. I had the same problem until I learned to be proud of who I am, the skills I do have, and what I can accomplish.

Like I said, anything taken too far can be harmful. Where does pride go from respecting yourself and seeing value in who you are and what you accomplish to being arrogant? In this sense one can have pride in themselves in who they are, I think it is a part of self-respect, and still be humble.

I feel if a person is too humble, it can hurt them. People need to know that what they do is apprciated and most people need realistic praise from time to time. So I think it goes back to what we are taught. Balance. Balance of they physical and mental, balance of values, balance in your life.

If you disagree, that is fine. I am just speaking from personal experience and what I have noticed in teaching children and younger adults.

Championship Gis are still borderline for me for my above reasoning. Black belts with their name on it is perfectly acceptable in my mind. If you are going to wear a black belt, saying that you have attained a level of mastership in your art, I want know who this person is who claims such a thing and I want your name on your belt. It is like you are putting your good name and your word on what you are saying you have accomplished. That is just me though.

Mark: Why do you disagree with the ceremonies? I am interested in your thoughts.

 

[Mark70Z]

If I understand the dictionary usage, the first definition listed is the most common usage. The others are secondary terms. Also, I would look at the origin of the word to get it's original meaning. Now, from the secondary definitions used above, I would somewhat agree that a person can take pride in their accomplishment, but shouldn't carry it too far. Also, you can and should be proud of your children, using the definitions you guys gave.

I believe the ATA states that there ceremonies are from Korean tradition, and most of the traditions are typically from religions such as Buddhism. Correct me on this if I'm wrong.

 

[Shu2jack]

I believe the ATA states that there ceremonies are from Korean tradition, and most of the traditions are typically from religions such as Buddhism. Correct me on this if I'm wrong.

I am not sure if they are taken directly from Korean tradition or if they based the ceremonies on Korean tradition. I believe the requirements to become a Master are. Even if they are based on religions such as Buddhism, I do not see what the problem would be. They are celebrating the accomplishments of students, instructors, and masters, not any one religion. I have been to about 5 or 7 ATA World Tournaments and I don't ever remember them pushing anything religous, only honour for those who work hard and accomplish great things in the organization.

 

[Mark70Z]

I would just personally have an issue with a ceremony that comes directly from a religion, ie. Buddhism, and try to incorporate it in with a karate Master Ceremony. You may see nothing wrong with it, but I don't think I could be involved.

I guess I would really need to know more of the background of the ceremony to make a final judgment on the process the ATA uses. I've been to a few of the World Championships, and would agree with you that they didn't push any particular religion. Of course that doesn't mean that the ceremony is not from a specific religion. Do you know if there is any documentation out there that takes you through the process of the Master's Ceremony?

 

[Shu2jack]

There is documentation. I will have to dig it up from the ATA magizines though. There are 9 steps to the ceremony, which I will look up for you to make sure I have it all correct and post it. However, the ceremony hasn't come from any religion.

As for the training before the ceremony, most of it will not be spoken of. Many of the ideas for the training are taken from eastern philosophy. Purifying the body, fasting, training with the other canadates alone in the mountains in Arkansas, and some other things. The training isn't so much a religious thing, but a weeding out process and testing the dedication of the instructors.

 

[Mark70Z]

I know I've read about the ceremony before in the ATA magazine. I don't keep them, so I can't go back and research. I do "think" I read that parts of the ceremony are taken directly from Korean traditional ceremonies, which parts are based upon Buddhist philosophy, ie. Gong, Water represented cleansing/purify. See what you can come up with, I'd like to know where they get all this from, or did they just make it up for the ATA.

I know I read about a Christian fellow in the ATA who is a Master. I can't remember his name, but he's really tall and was featured in one of the ATA magazines, and I think he used to be a pastor, or helped to pastor (something like that) I bet he would know all the details...