Saps, coin purses, blackjacks - any experience?

[Russian Whips]

So, I'm guessing you weren't actually seeking opinions as your original post implied. Instead, you're simply advertising your wares?

That's not cool!

Why? Whatever makes you think so it's your opinion. I am genuinely interested in the subject and keep exploring the different ideas of saps and coin purses because I really think they are very effective and (in case of coin purses) fairly legal ways to enhance one's self-defense capabilities. At the same time lack of firsthand experience of using them in a fight situation makes me fish for such experiences in the forum.

 

[Juany118]

The items used in the video you linked are very useful, although I've never used them in self-defense (I use them for more....recreational purposes). They are great for providing pain in an efficient manner without doing any serious or permanent damage.

You can easily lacerate the scalp with a black jack or slap jack (slappers especially due to the seam). You can even fracture a skull.

 

[Juany118]

I actually suggest to anyone who asks about one of those "get an expandable baton, preferably one that has a positive lock vs friction and train with it" for the following reasons.

1. If you are going to use such a tool for striking self defense the other party better have some sort of weapon or have you completely out matched size wise. A Baton allows you to block and parry as well.

2. You can get batons that when collapsed aren't much longer (if at all) than a black jack but when expanded they give more reach.

3. The expandable baton also provides you with control options.

5. A positive lock baton allows you to thrust with no danger of collapsing the baton.

 

[Russian Whips]

I actually suggest to anyone who asks about one of those "get an expandable baton, preferably one that has a positive lock vs friction and train with it" for the following reasons.

1. If you are going to use such a tool for striking self defense the other party better have some sort of weapon or have you completely out matched size wise. A Baton allows you to block and parry as well.

2. You can get batons that when collapsed aren't much longer (if at all) than a black jack but when expanded they give more reach.

3. The expandable baton also provides you with control options.

5. A positive lock baton allows you to thrust with no danger of collapsing the baton.

My question concerning such batons is: are they legal?

Then, I think metal batons are dangerous because they cause serious damage immediately (if you strike somebody over the head with metal rod you can fracture the scull even if you never intended.

Saps on the other hand seem less lethal, they would knock out but not injure as much as metal stick

 

[Juany118]

My question concerning such batons is: are they legal?

Then, I think metal batons are dangerous because they cause serious damage immediately (if you strike somebody over the head with metal rod you can fracture the scull even if you never intended.

Saps on the other hand seem less lethal, they would knock out but not injure as much as metal stick

It depends on the Jurisdiction (in the US). In my State they MAYBE legal, technically, because they aren't named specifically in statute however black jack and slap jacks are illegal explicitly. Nunchuku in one case were not found to be a prohibited offensive weapon by the courts, and I could not find a specific baton case. As for damage a few things.

1. Slap and black jacks have a "whipping" motion in them as well. This actually magnifies the force beyond what one could do than say a similarly sized flashlight.
2. If it has a seam, like many slap jacks, you can actually do serious lacerations to someone, especially on the scalp.
3. Even if the above wasn't true, the circumstances under which it would be legally sound to use one are the same as the baton so why not get the flexibility to do things other than just "wack" someone.

 

[Red Sun]

I think it'd depend on context. The problem isn't that the weapons don't work, it's that you may have trouble using them if you're already under attack. For a pre-emptive strike, to restrain someone, or to multiply your damage when you've already taken the upper hand? Sure. But, you could use a tree branch for those things just as easily.

 

[Russian Whips]

It depends on the Jurisdiction (in the US). In my State they MAYBE legal, technically, because they aren't named specifically in statute however black jack and slap jacks are illegal explicitly. Nunchuku in one case were not found to be a prohibited offensive weapon by the courts, and I could not find a specific baton case. As for damage a few things.

1. Slap and black jacks have a "whipping" motion in them as well. This actually magnifies the force beyond what one could do than say a similarly sized flashlight.
2. If it has a seam, like many slap jacks, you can actually do serious lacerations to someone, especially on the scalp.
3. Even if the above wasn't true, the circumstances under which it would be legally sound to use one are the same as the baton so why not get the flexibility to do things other than just "wack" someone.

I believe my sausage sap is therefore less likely to cause unnecessary damage because it's rounded, it can be made lighted or heavier dapending og the filler (lead shot or sand).

 

[Russian Whips]

I think it'd depend on context. The problem isn't that the weapons don't work, it's that you may have trouble using them if you're already under attack. For a pre-emptive strike, to restrain someone, or to multiply your damage when you've already taken the upper hand? Sure. But, you could use a tree branch for those things just as easily.

Or one can take a long sock put a coke can inside (or rock, baseball, soap or bunch of loose change) and use it.

 

[Russian Whips]

Two self-defense keychains. One of them - my everyday carry ))

 

[frank raud]

Blackjacks and saps? Kinda old skool.

 

[pgsmith]

Why? Whatever makes you think so it's your opinion. I am genuinely interested in the subject and keep exploring the different ideas of saps and coin purses because I really think they are very effective and (in case of coin purses) fairly legal ways to enhance one's self-defense capabilities. At the same time lack of firsthand experience of using them in a fight situation makes me fish for such experiences in the forum.

I disagree. You are simply trying hard to sell things that you make.

I gave you my opinion of saps from my first hand knowledge of them being used. Saps in various forms were quite popular with the gangs where I lived back in the '70's because you could hit with full strength and not worry about twist or rebound. I personally witnessed several people killed or permanently disabled by saps. However, you had no response at all to my opinion, despite saying that was what you were looking for.

Advertising is advertising, no matter how you attempt to disguise it.

 

[Russian Whips]

I disagree. You are simply trying hard to sell things that you make.

I gave you my opinion of saps from my first hand knowledge of them being used. Saps in various forms were quite popular with the gangs where I lived back in the '70's because you could hit with full strength and not worry about twist or rebound. I personally witnessed several people killed or permanently disabled by saps. However, you had no response at all to my opinion, despite saying that was what you were looking for.

Advertising is advertising, no matter how you attempt to disguise it.

Whatever... Thanks for sharing your personal experience!

 

[frank raud]

My question concerning such batons is: are they legal?

Then, I think metal batons are dangerous because they cause serious damage immediately (if you strike somebody over the head with metal rod you can fracture the scull even if you never intended.

Saps on the other hand seem less lethal, they would knock out but not injure as much as metal stick

So, you are concerned if collapsible batons are legal, but not saps and blackjacks?

 

[Russian Whips]

So, you are concerned if collapsible batons are legal, but not saps and blackjacks?

I just prefer saps thats all. In case of coin purses legal issues just barely exist

 

[drop bear]

My question concerning such batons is: are they legal?

Then, I think metal batons are dangerous because they cause serious damage immediately (if you strike somebody over the head with metal rod you can fracture the scull even if you never intended.

Saps on the other hand seem less lethal, they would knock out but not injure as much as metal stick

Depends what bat you get and how you use it. Something like a monodock has a big rubber nub on the end.

 

[Kiki]

I kind of fell in love with saps and jacks a while back. From a hopelessly nerdy desire to produce a history on something no one ever has, I now have a manuscript I'm shopping around but good grief that's a long, slow process.

I obviously find them fascinating... used by Teddy Roosevelt, Al Capone, Jack Ruby and of course generations of police, sailors and even soldiers.

Legalities aside (for now), I think they occupy a unique space that has never been filled since they fell away. Something no longer than the length from my outstretched pinky to thumb, weighing less than a pound that can break bones (jack) or produce a KO (sap) with nothing but wrist action (in practiced hands)? That's kind of amazing.

I have an (amateurish) overview and collection vid if anyone's interested...

Didn't come here to self-promote, it's just that I almost fell out of my chair when I stumbled across this thread today.

 

[Russian Whips]

I kind of fell in love with saps and jacks a while back. From a hopelessly nerdy desire to produce a history on something no one ever has, I now have a manuscript I'm shopping around but good grief that's a long, slow process.

I obviously find them fascinating... used by Teddy Roosevelt, Al Capone, Jack Ruby and of course generations of police, sailors and even soldiers.

Legalities aside (for now), I think they occupy a unique space that has never been filled since they fell away. Something no longer than the length from my outstretched pinky to thumb, weighing less than a pound that can break bones (jack) or produce a KO (sap) with nothing but wrist action (in practiced hands)? That's kind of amazing.

I have an (amateurish) overview and collection vid if anyone's interested...

Didn't come here to self-promote, it's just that I almost fell out of my chair when I stumbled across this thread today.

Wow! Now it was all worth it ! I mean starting the whole topic just to meet you, Kiki ! So excited to meet the likeminded sap fan!
I am eager to continue designing and creating variety of saps, coin purses and the like impact weapons and have a great base for this. I cooperate with a leather shop which is ready to implement my ideas, like the sausage sap or the coin purse.

 

[Kiki]

Wow! Now it was all worth it ! I mean starting the whole topic just to meet you, Kiki ! So excited to meet the likeminded sap fan!
I am eager to continue designing and creating variety of saps, coin purses and the like impact weapons and have a great base for this. I cooperate with a leather shop which is ready to implement my ideas, like the sausage sap or the coin purse.

Same here. I definitely noticed when your products started to hit the market. The legalities in the US are very problematic as saps and jacks had such a nefarious reputation for so long. In New York state just carrying one is the same level of offense as someone who has exploding bullets and intends to use them!
In my state you can have them on your own property, including in your car.
Some don't care about the legal side and carry them for defense anyway but I think most of the buyers are people like me who just plain like them.

 

[Tez3]

I definitely noticed when your products started to hit the market

Sorry to use your post as proof but we were concerned that the OP came here to sell his products and now you've shown that he is in business. Advertising would be fine if he paid for it, free advertising at MT's expense is unfair.

 

[Kiki]

Well I'd prefer if my post were used to further discussion on the weapons, use, pros, cons, etc.

I don't want to spam the thread but yeah, if anyone wants to talk technique, case law, history, you name it... I'm down.