'Returning to the root' of your martial art

[_Simon_]

Something just occurred to me in another flash...

I see often many practitioners attempting to return to the 'roots' of their martial art, in an attempt to understand it better.

But I wonder if this is really necessary.

People often consider the 'root' of their martial art to be solely time-based. What they did 'back then', and in looking solely at the origin of the art.

To me, I find more richness in looking at the evolution as a whole, and delving into the aspects that actually speak to you.

Karate for example mainly originated in Okinawa (as in the main development and creation of the specific art of karate, not going back further). Many state that the root of Okinawan karate was/is self defence. And as it entered Japan it underwent a bit of a transformation, or redirection of focus. Sure they aimed to teach it and reach more people, but there was a direction of perfection of character through perfection of technique. A more personal, spiritual direction which focused not only on defending oneself physically, but learning to defend oneself WITHIN oneself. Finding the use of karate as a vehicle towards self-development and inner harmony grew as a need for that time. Then of course the movement towards competition and sports karate grew too.

Just as the practice of Zen started in India with Boddhidharma, then grew in China, and blossomed in Japan, each stage served a different purpose or emphasis. It evolved naturally through understanding, and each had its place.

Just because something happened a long time ago in the chain of events, doesn't mean that where to find the gold you're looking for in it. That may not be the reason you are drawn to it. Look along the pathway of how it's evolved as a whole, and go beyond the linear stages, and in believing one stage is more important or valuable than another.

Do we need to return to the 'root' of civilisation to gain greater depth and meaning? If so, we could go back to the Neanderthals and earlier, and purely just their focus on surviving for our lives and continuance, then use that to justify our focus in life. I don't see purpose as linear, but being born out of understanding and experience.

I would say to honour the emphasis which grabs you, and not feel the need to conform to what others may say is the sole only reason for doing something.

Am saying this as much to myself haha. Just some ramblings and nothing definitive, take it with a grain of salt if you'd like

 

[Tez3]

Something just occurred to me in another flash...

You are going to give yourself a headache at this rate!

Isee often many practitioners attempting to return to the 'roots' of their martial art, in an attempt to understand it better.

My primary martial art is Wado Ryu karate, I don't have to go back far to find the roots of that. My secondary martial art is MMA and as I'm old enough to be in at the beginning of that it doesn't take much searching either.


PS commiserations on India ladies beating the Aussie girls in the T20, oh dear how sad never mind.

 

[_Simon_]

You are going to give yourself a headache at this rate!

Hahaha.. this much is true XD. Better out than in at this stage!

My primary martial art is Wado Ryu karate, I don't have to go back far to find the roots of that. My secondary martial art is MMA and as I'm old enough to be in at the beginning of that it doesn't take much searching either.

Yeah that may be a good thing! And I guess how far back do we even go, and to what extent would that be useful too?

That's not to say don't explore the history and early stages of the art, but that it depends at what stage of its development we are interested in delving into.

PS commiserations on India ladies beating the Aussie girls in the T20, oh dear how sad never mind.

Haha ah yikes... haven't watched cricket in yeeeears, but better luck next time Aussies ;D

 

[skribs]

I think a lot of it depends on what you want out of the art, and why you're going back to the root of it. Let's take Taekwondo for example. Taekwondo started off as basically Korean Karate. It was Karate, as the Koreans learned it, with a heavy emphasis on powerful hand strikes. It evolved over time to be the kicking art, and boy does it have wonderful kicks. But it's largely gone away from the martial aspect it used to have, with many schools focused on memorizing forms and then doing the kicking game.

Someone who trains Taekwondo and does the kicking game may want to learn more about the self-defense or martial aspects of the art. In this case, they'd go back to the roots - learn the forms and techniques that were taught when TKD started, in order to learn the aspect of the art that they want to learn. Maybe they reject the advancements in kicking, maybe they try and do it all.

Another aspect is what's been lost over time due to translation issues or poor quality control. Let's say that I know everything about martial arts (I know I act like it sometimes, but let's say it's true for right now). As the supreme arbiter of martial combat, I teach the future leaders of the martial arts world. However, I'm only able to teach them 70% of what I know. There may be 10% I think they know and don't teach them. There may be 10% they just never understand. There may be another 10% they forget by the time they open up their school.

The same thing happens to them. Their proteges, their best students, only retain 70% of what their master taught. Now we're at 49% in just 2 generations. Another generation would have us down to 34.3%. In just 3 generations, we barely know a third of what the original Master wanted us to learn. Our options at this point are:

• Cross-train to fill in the gaps
• Evolve the art on our own to put our own ideas in
• Look at what the original master left behind (in the form of books, journals, etc) in order to try and get back to the root of what was taught

 

[wab25]

I see often many practitioners attempting to return to the 'roots' of their martial art, in an attempt to understand it better.

But I wonder if this is really necessary.

I think it is necessary. Going back to the roots and looking at the path the art took to get to you, is the only way to understand what you are studying. Your art puts your hand up here where my art puts it down over there. Is it really that your art wants to hit one target and mine wants to hit a different target? What are the principles and ideas that your art has, how does your art help you learn and study them? To figure this stuff out, you need to know what you are looking at.

To me, I find more richness in looking at the evolution as a whole, and delving into the aspects that actually speak to you.

I don't see this as being any different than looking for the roots. The root of what you are studying, is all the evolution it went through to get to you. You gave a great example with karate. This movement started as a self defense movement, then became a perfection of character movement and now became a performance competition movement. Looking at what was changed to make it less self defense and more perfection of character, helps you to better understand how to use that movement for both reasons. Researching this does not mean that you need to favor one over the other. In fact, you should focus on the part that speaks to you, just as you said. But in learning where it started, and both how and why it evolved, will give you a better understanding of the part you like.

Just because something happened a long time ago in the chain of events, doesn't mean that where to find the gold you're looking for in it. That may not be the reason you are drawn to it. Look along the pathway of how it's evolved as a whole, and go beyond the linear stages, and in believing one stage is more important or valuable than another.

Again, I agree. Study the entire path. Especially if you are or will be an instructor. Different students will be drawn to different parts, for different reasons. And those same students will change their reasons as they progress, just like ore own reasons for studying this stuff changes. The more of the path way you understand, the more different types of students you can relate to, and the more depth you can give them for the area that they are drawn to, at that moment in time.

Then you can get into the fun questions. Shotokan Karate likes to see itself as one strike, one kill. Yet, we practice kata that have 20-50 killing movements in them, in order to perfect my character. How does practicing killing techniques help perfect my character?

I believe that there is a lot to learn by looking at where an art started, what influenced its creation and how it has changed over time. You need to look at not only what changed, but when and why it was changed... who changed it and what were they accomplishing with that change.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How far do we want to trace?

The root of computer is this:

The root of Chinese wrestling is this:

 

[Tez3]

With or without the mating afterwards? Because that's what the rut is, fighting and mating......

 

[skribs]

How far do we want to trace?

The root of computer is this:

The roof of Chinese wrestling is this:

It must not be that far back if we have color video of it.

 

[skribs]

With or without the mating afterwards? Because that's what the rut is, fighting and mating......

Or you can take BJJ and...you can see where I'm going with this joke.

 

[isshinryuronin]

With or without the mating afterwards? Because that's what the rut is, fighting and mating......

If mating followed the fighting, I'd do a lot more sparring! But then, at my age, I'd be too tired.

 

[Tez3]

If mating followed the fighting, I'd do a lot more sparring! But then, at my age, I'd be too tired.

That's true of the stags too, poor things, all hyped up, fighting, mating and not eating, some even die, harsh!

 

[isshinryuronin]

The same thing happens to them. Their proteges, their best students, only retain 70% of what their master taught. Now we're at 49% in just 2 generations. Another generation would have us down to 34.3%. In just 3 generations, we barely know a third of what the original Master wanted us to learn.

Just as an old 45rpm vinyl record (most of you may not know what this is), or an old film classic can be digitally remastered in an attempt to recapture the original quality, old things fade over time, loosing luster and perhaps meaning. After the fall of the Roman Empire, the dark ages followed and so much knowledge was lost for 600 years. Then, during the Renaissance, those who became great artists, scientists and philosophers were able to look back to the roots of knowledge from the past.

What is happening now, in the karate world, is a type of Renaissance where we are looking back to the roots to find elements that have faded or dropped away, and remaster them. The change from "jutsu" to "do" to competition is fine. Additions are fine - what is not is what's lost in the process of time. Adding new branches are fine, but without the trunk and roots being healthy, the branches will slowly die.

 

[skribs]

Just as an old 45rpm vinyl record (most of you may not know what this is), or an old film classic can be digitally remastered in an attempt to recapture the original quality, old things fade over time, loosing luster and perhaps meaning. After the fall of the Roman Empire, the dark ages followed and so much knowledge was lost for 600 years. Then, during the Renaissance, those who became great artists, scientists and philosophers were able to look back to the roots of knowledge from the past.

Or Lostech in Battletech/Mechwarrior.

 

[drop bear]

I know a few guys who have done this. A karate mate of mine did a Japan trip. And of course it is almost cheaper to go to Thailand than some parts of Australia.

I think it is worth it just to be around highly motivated people.

 

[_Simon_]

I think a lot of it depends on what you want out of the art, and why you're going back to the root of it. Let's take Taekwondo for example. Taekwondo started off as basically Korean Karate. It was Karate, as the Koreans learned it, with a heavy emphasis on powerful hand strikes. It evolved over time to be the kicking art, and boy does it have wonderful kicks. But it's largely gone away from the martial aspect it used to have, with many schools focused on memorizing forms and then doing the kicking game.

Someone who trains Taekwondo and does the kicking game may want to learn more about the self-defense or martial aspects of the art. In this case, they'd go back to the roots - learn the forms and techniques that were taught when TKD started, in order to learn the aspect of the art that they want to learn. Maybe they reject the advancements in kicking, maybe they try and do it all.

Another aspect is what's been lost over time due to translation issues or poor quality control. Let's say that I know everything about martial arts (I know I act like it sometimes, but let's say it's true for right now). As the supreme arbiter of martial combat, I teach the future leaders of the martial arts world. However, I'm only able to teach them 70% of what I know. There may be 10% I think they know and don't teach them. There may be 10% they just never understand. There may be another 10% they forget by the time they open up their school.

The same thing happens to them. Their proteges, their best students, only retain 70% of what their master taught. Now we're at 49% in just 2 generations. Another generation would have us down to 34.3%. In just 3 generations, we barely know a third of what the original Master wanted us to learn. Our options at this point are:

• Cross-train to fill in the gaps
• Evolve the art on our own to put our own ideas in
• Look at what the original master left behind (in the form of books, journals, etc) in order to try and get back to the root of what was taught

Very well said. And yeah that's exactly it, and I guess what I'm putting forward. That it depends what you want out of the art.

And also to see that there wasn't really a stagnant intention throughout the whole arc of the art's development (generally speaking). Common threads for sure, but it seems it evolved in different ways, flourished in certain areas of development, and it seems alot of arts split into those different intentions via different groups.

And for sure, for those wanting to get more insight into stuff that has been left behind etc, I'm all for tracing back and learning all that. Heck I'd still love to and jump at the chance train in Okinawa!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I train under an instructor who trained under two instructors, both of whom were students of the founder. I am third-generation, so to speak. We do have frequent contact with other first-generation students of the founder, who assist us in keeping our training as close as possible to what the founder taught.

Not sure how much further back I could go.

 

[_Simon_]

I think it is necessary. Going back to the roots and looking at the path the art took to get to you, is the only way to understand what you are studying. Your art puts your hand up here where my art puts it down over there. Is it really that your art wants to hit one target and mine wants to hit a different target? What are the principles and ideas that your art has, how does your art help you learn and study them? To figure this stuff out, you need to know what you are looking at.


I don't see this as being any different than looking for the roots. The root of what you are studying, is all the evolution it went through to get to you. You gave a great example with karate. This movement started as a self defense movement, then became a perfection of character movement and now became a performance competition movement. Looking at what was changed to make it less self defense and more perfection of character, helps you to better understand how to use that movement for both reasons. Researching this does not mean that you need to favor one over the other. In fact, you should focus on the part that speaks to you, just as you said. But in learning where it started, and both how and why it evolved, will give you a better understanding of the part you like.


Again, I agree. Study the entire path. Especially if you are or will be an instructor. Different students will be drawn to different parts, for different reasons. And those same students will change their reasons as they progress, just like ore own reasons for studying this stuff changes. The more of the path way you understand, the more different types of students you can relate to, and the more depth you can give them for the area that they are drawn to, at that moment in time.

Then you can get into the fun questions. Shotokan Karate likes to see itself as one strike, one kill. Yet, we practice kata that have 20-50 killing movements in them, in order to perfect my character. How does practicing killing techniques help perfect my character?

I believe that there is a lot to learn by looking at where an art started, what influenced its creation and how it has changed over time. You need to look at not only what changed, but when and why it was changed... who changed it and what were they accomplishing with that change.

Ahhh I see what you mean, and totally agree. Yes I think we're saying the same or a similar thing in different ways! Very well said.

Just because an art in it's very initial inception started as just a way to fight people, doesn't mean that's the only part to focus all your attention on, which is all I'm saying. To not get stuck thinking the only way to understand an art is to trace it back linearly and ONLY look at the starting point in terms of time. To see the interrelated whole and evolution.

And yeah I guess I'm saying that just because karate originated simply as a way to defeat larger people, that that's all it is and all we should focus on. And the question arises, what is THE root? Monkeys fighting?

I really like your point about studying why or how it morphed from one focus to another, and how that can help you understand the part you want to delve into more. Absolutely 100%. And your point about the root being woven throughout rather than just at the very start is gold.

And I guess the premise I'm putting forward is that I've seen people do, is believe that the only legitimate way is to go back in 'time', and see the origin of the art, and only believe that that is the primary reason for the WHOLE art. And not only that, but then professing to the world that this art is solely for this reason.

I am a fan of learning from all the phases of development of the art, I mean what does one lose by doing so? You gain quite a bit.

I remember years ago in my old style, we were having a seminar, and our branch chief was talking to the group and saying, "Kyokushin is not about developing your character, it's about learning how to fight." I remember standing there, in zenkutsu dachi gedan barai, just feeling so deflated. What a statement to say to the room.. is that what you've gotten out of your 40 odd years of dedication to the art? And is that what we're all here for?

 

[_Simon_]

How far do we want to trace?

The root of computer is this:

The root of Chinese wrestling is this:

Hahaha, ah love ya dude, that's my point exactly XD

 

[_Simon_]

Just as an old 45rpm vinyl record (most of you may not know what this is), or an old film classic can be digitally remastered in an attempt to recapture the original quality, old things fade over time, loosing luster and perhaps meaning. After the fall of the Roman Empire, the dark ages followed and so much knowledge was lost for 600 years. Then, during the Renaissance, those who became great artists, scientists and philosophers were able to look back to the roots of knowledge from the past.

What is happening now, in the karate world, is a type of Renaissance where we are looking back to the roots to find elements that have faded or dropped away, and remaster them. The change from "jutsu" to "do" to competition is fine. Additions are fine - what is not is what's lost in the process of time. Adding new branches are fine, but without the trunk and roots being healthy, the branches will slowly die.

That's a cool way of expressing it. Yeah absolutely, and then maybe things don't necessarily get lost as such, but morph and evolve themselves? So it doesn't look exactly like its original form, but is expressed in a new, radiant, fresh, alive way?

And then some things fall away as they're no longer seen as valuable. But yes, to reclaim and refocus on what was valuable but fell by the wayside is a very valuable pursuit indeed. IF it is important to you and to what you're seeking to develop within yourself.

And I guess I'm also saying that whilst it's not good to get stuck thinking only the early origin is the only meaning of the art, the most modern (eg sport-focused) is also not the only picture either!

 

[_Simon_]

I know a few guys who have done this. A karate mate of mine did a Japan trip. And of course it is almost cheaper to go to Thailand than some parts of Australia.

I think it is worth it just to be around highly motivated people.

Definitely, and I'd jump at the chance to train in Japan too.

 

[_Simon_]

I train under an instructor who trained under two instructors, both of whom were students of the founder. I am third-generation, so to speak. We do have frequent contact with other first-generation students of the founder, who assist us in keeping our training as close as possible to what the founder taught.

Not sure how much further back I could go.

Look to the monkeys!