Preventing Crime and other topics culled from Law Enforcement forum

[Steve]

The thread had drifted somewhat from the OP here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...ng-my-hands-up-and-walking-away-from-this-job

Considering the overall tone and somber nature of that thread, I just thought that it would be more respectful to pull any conversations regarding crime, crime prevention and such out and move it over here to the study.

No doubt we can do better. But what is better? How do we prevent having to put people in jail? My two cents is that it has to start in the home. Kids have to be taught respect.

Jackpot questions right there. I would take it back a little further and say that I agree with you in that it has to start with KIDS. Does it have to start at home? Well, great if the kids have a "home," but it sets us ("us" meaning society at large) up for failure because it depends upon something that we already know millions of kids don't have: a home. And if we open that up to include kids who do have a "home," but for whom the home better resembles Thunderdome than a nurturing, safe place for kids to learn to become productive, healthy, and happy members of adult society.

I understand that "respect starts at home" is a common turn of phrase, but in this case it is, I believe, a dangerous one. Dangerous because it fails to confront the reality that many of the kids who grow up to become criminals are doing so precisely because they have no home, or their home is broken in some fundamental manner.

Point is that I agree we need to address the issue early. But, I would disagree that parenting is the issue we need to be addressing. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone were great parents? Of course, that would make things a lot easier, and parenting classes could certainly help. But that fails to address the cycle of poverty and the surrogate family that gangs and criminal organizations provide to children who are otherwise lacking a stable home life.

Respect for their home, their teachers, their neighbors, others' property, law. We don't do that anymore from what I see. Kids are taught be TV programs and other kids that it is OK to do only what 'you' want to do. Snide or flat out disrespect to parents or teachers is OK since they don't have a clue about anything important, especially the all-knowing youth of today.

Respect is an ideal, and my personal opinion is that it isn't "teachable." Like crime, "respect" is a symptom, as is its absence.

Before we can solve the issue, we, as a society, have to own the problem. In other words, if "we" don't like that the kids down the road are joining gangs and committing crimes, "we" need to accept responsibility for the kids who are at risk of becoming the next recruits. Obviously, funding and supporting the LEO who are dealing with the criminals is a part of the equation. But, as you say, we have to start with the kids.

Here's another lame metaphor. Anyone here have pets? Have to deal with fleas? For decades (literally), I had nary a flea in my house. Then I brought home a cat. She's lovable, but she had fleas. Okay, so cutting to the chase, to deal with you have to eliminate the production of fleas. Killing the fleas that are on the animals only addresses the symptom. To solve the problem, you have to kill the eggs, too. You have to, in other words, address the root issue. And, of course, while you are addressing the issue, you ALSO have to address the symptom.

We have a lot of issues, but the symptom is preventable crime.

Also, I salute you. How wonderful to live where it is safer than any other time in history. That hasn't been my experience, sorry to say. I guess we have lived on different streets.

I'm not sure what you're implying here. Crime, overall, as in nationally. I don't know where you live or have lived.

Strange! Part of the things I tagged to reply to above in my previous thread, seem to have been added here. I didn't retag them so I don't know why.

But since I am again replying, may I suggest the metaphor of dandelions is a little flawed. If you were pulling them out of your yard and isolating them somewhere they could not have contact with your lawn or anyone elses, but were otherwise taken care of; maybe. But you are killing them in your metaphor, not what I think you want as a solution for criminals, no matter their offense?

Again the added tagged items from both posts. At least by going to advanced I saw them and took them out.

Children aren't weeds in the metaphor. Crime is the weed. But metaphors are never perfect.

 

[granfire]

It would be doable, but the methods are thoroughly unconstitutional.

Oh, and kick this self esteem thing to the curb. The purple dinosaur is annoying as heck anyhow!

Put more money into teacher's salaries...

of course this is over simplified....there is no easy or simplistic solution.

 

[K-man]

We just had a TV programme on the issue of shoplifting. It was centered on supermarkets although it is a huge problem to society as a whole. You could look at it in two ways, those who stole basic necessities because they had no money and those that stole things like confectionary because they had no spare money for luxuries.

If we look at common street violence I see two main types again. That perpetrated by disaffected youth and that caused by alcohol.

I think a lot of crime has come about because of the type of society we have allowed th develop in the so-called first world. The extreme diversity of wealth and the insane desire to make more and more money to buy more and more baubles is killing our lifestyle. We no longer have the extended families I grew up with and, to be honest, I feel very despondent when I think about our society in 10 or 20 years time. This is a radical change from my views of 20, or even 10, years ago. :asian:

 

[ballen0351]

There is no one answer. You need to attack the problem from many different sides all at once and quite frankly I dont think society is ready for a real solution,

 

[Steve]

There is no one answer. You need to attack the problem from many different sides all at once and quite frankly I dont think society is ready for a real solution,

Could you be more specific, ballen?

What solutions might society not be ready for?

 

[Tgace]

Off the top of my head. In no particular order we have:

-Poverty: Which is a relative term. Poverty in the US is FAR different a thing than poverty in "other than first world" nations. With our sort of poverty comes jealousy for material goods vs life essentials like food/water/shelter for the most part. Sure there are some of that sort of poor too, but a large chunk of our poor are not.

-Education: It's tough to work your way out of poverty without education. Of course a culture that looks on education as a "selling out" is a huge issue too.

-Parenting: Don't need to elaborate on this too much I assume? Linked strongly to education...if the family doesn't care about it, neither will the student.

-Media: While perhaps not "melting our brains", you can't convince me that the glamorization of crime/violence doesn't have an impact on those young enough to have their worldview formed by it in the vacuum created by lack of parenting. Heck just think of the entertainment that's popular these days. "Breaking Bad"..."Sons of Anarchy"...[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“Prison Break,” “The Sopranos,” “Dexter,” Then there is video games....[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-Culture: There is no denying that some cultures in the US don't put a premium of "success" as we would define the term. It's better to make money dealing drugs than it is by designing the next I-device. One will give you status within your circles while the other can have you labeled a "sell-out". The whole push in society towards "relativism" bears a bit of the burden IMO. We cant label people as good or bad..actions as right or wrong. We get looked down on as "judgmental" ("Who are YOU to judge ME??") when we try to set standards for behavior.

-Youth: The young have always been and will likely always be prone to poor decision making.

The fact of the matter is that Crime is like a game of whack-a-mole. If you do the right things it's a slow game you can keep up with...if you dont it runs away on you. But to think you can turn it off? Never gonna happen. [/FONT]

 

[granfire]

Off the top of my head. In no particular order we have:

-Poverty: Which is a relative term. Poverty in the US is FAR different a thing than poverty in "other than first world" nations. With our sort of poverty comes jealousy for material goods vs life essentials like food/water/shelter for the most part. Sure there are some of that sort of poor too, but a large chunk of our poor are not.

-Education: It's tough to work your way out of poverty without education. Of course a culture that looks on education as a "selling out" is a huge issue too.

-Parenting: Don't need to elaborate on this too much I assume? Linked strongly to education...if the family doesn't care about it, neither will the student.

-Media: While perhaps not "melting our brains", you can't convince me that the glamorization of crime/violence doesn't have an impact on those young enough to have their worldview formed by it in the vacuum created by lack of parenting. Heck just think of the entertainment that's popular these days. "Breaking Bad"..."Sons of Anarchy"...“Prison Break,” “The Sopranos,” “Dexter,” Then there is video games....

-Culture: There is no denying that some cultures in the US don't put a premium of "success" as we would define the term. It's better to make money dealing drugs than it is by designing the next I-device. One will give you status within your circles while the other can have you labeled a "sell-out". The whole push in society towards "relativism" bears a bit of the burden IMO. We cant label people as good or bad..actions as right or wrong. We get looked down on as "judgmental" ("Who are YOU to judge ME??") when we try to set standards for behavior.

-Youth: The young have always been and will likely always be prone to poor decision making.

The fact of the matter is that Crime is like a game of whack-a-mole. If you do the right things it's a slow game you can keep up with...if you dont it runs away on you. But to think you can turn it off? Never gonna happen.

Sadly we have - as a society - taken a turn for the lowest common denominator.
For some reason we have in the last 20 years embraced the thug culture....

 

[Sukerkin]

I think that some very key issues have been raised above. One that is implicit behind some of them is that the consumer society, by it's nature, breeds inequality and envy - that's how it is fueled.

When the new generation of 'poor' comes along and sees that, despite it's dangers, those who break the law rake in tons of cash and those that educate themselves and try to live 'right' get next to nothing, it doesn't actually seem like a crazy idea to take the 'bad' road. Those that build, create and invent need to properly rewarded for their efforts if society is to bind together and endure.

I proffer myself and my friends (from my youthful days) as an example. I grew up dirt poor and clawed my way out of the pit through education. I have more letters after my name than are in my name {and I have a long name :lol:} and yet, despite my bearing the responsibility for helping keep 75% of the National Grid operational, I get paid, maybe, 20% more than a supermarket shelf-stacker. Most of my 'circle' from my past are dead but those that have not been erased by drugs and associated violence have more money from their 'ventures' than I will ever have in my entire career.

Leaving aside the obscene imbalances of wealth in both our cultures and dealing only with those of poor and working class backgrounds, unless that kind of ridiculous lack of equity in outcomes is addressed between those who walk in the 'light' and those who take to the shadows, then the shadow walkers will always be with us.

 

[Tgace]

I think that some very key issues have been raised above. One that is implicit behind some of them is that the consumer society, by it's nature, breeds inequality and envy - that's how it is fueled.

When the new generation of 'poor' comes along and sees that, despite it's dangers, those who break the law rake in tons of cash and those that educate themselves and try to live 'right' get next to nothing, it doesn't actually seem like a crazy idea to take the 'bad' road. Those that build, create and invent need to properly rewarded for their efforts if society is to bind together and endure.

I proffer myself and my friends (from my youthful days) as an example. I grew up dirt poor and clawed my way out of the pit through education. I have more letters after my name than are in my name {and I have a long name :lol:} and yet, despite my bearing the responsibility for helping keep 75% of the National Grid operational, I get paid, maybe, 20% more than a supermarket shelf-stacker. Most of my 'circle' from my past are dead but those that have not been erased by drugs and associated violence have more money from their 'ventures' than I will ever have in my entire career.

Leaving aside the obscene imbalances of wealth in both our cultures and dealing only with those of poor and working class backgrounds, unless that kind of ridiculous lack of equity in outcomes is addressed between those who walk in the 'light' and those who take to the shadows, then the shadow walkers will always be with us.

“When you can't have what you want, it's time to start wanting what you have.” -Unknown

I don't know if the real solution is making it so everybody can "get what they want". I'd really like a helicopter....

 

[ballen0351]

Could you be more specific, ballen?

What solutions might society not be ready for?

Now let me say 1st Im not an expert at anyhting here these are just my opinions for someone that deals with crimes every day. I talk to criminal every day. These are my observations and I have no idea if it would work but in my opinion I think it wouldnt hurt.

We need to understand that it took generations to cause the problem it will take gernerations to fix it. It will also need to get worse before it gets better and people need to understand that some things you can do because "Were Americans and its a free country" well we prob shouldnt be doing.

1st thing we need to do is get tough on crime and I mean really gt tough. Most crimes are not committed by newbs. Most criminals have been arrested many many times for the same crime. For example friday I arrested a shop lifter at 10 am security at a grocery store caught him with 10 packs of steaks in his pants. I arrested him and in this state if your arrested your taken before a court officer we call them court commissioners. Commissioner looked at his record 23 prior convictions for shoplifting. He also had 4 active pending cases for shoplifting. For some reason the commissioner released this guy pending trial. 3 hours later the same guy was caught again at a department store stealing 9 pairs of earrings. Again I arrested him and this time he got sent to jail with a $25,000 bond. Now if we got tought on crime after your 5th or 6th conviction for the same crime or any crime really you have shown your not going to follow the rules so your gone locked away for 45 years no early release no exceptions. Harsh sure but at some point it needs to be done someone in there 50s or 60s with 40+ arrests is uncalled for. So we will need bigger and more prisions for a while. I believe after a gereration of this people will think damn I better stop breaking the law or Im going away. The guy I was just talking about when I asked him why he keeps stealing he said basically why not I steal all day every day. I get caught maybe once every 30 to 40 times I try. I go to court say Im guilty get a 60 day jail sentence Im out in 3 weeks. I personally know murders that have done 4 years and gotten out of prison there is no reaosn for that.

2nd our "Safety Nets" like welfare and unemplyment and HUD housing section 8 ect are no longer safety nets and are now lifestyles for generations of people in this counrty. We have a city housing authority that owns 1000s and 1000s of apartments and they rent them to qualified people for 15 to 75 bucks a month. We have entire familys sometimes 4 gererations of the same family all living in housing authority properties. These places are a basic breeding gound for criminals and gangs. Very few of these kids will ever leave when they turn 16 they will go apply for there own apartment and when they turn 18 to 20 they will move up the waiting list and get an apartment. These programs are basically making people slaves to the Govt. Which ever party offers them the most free stuff they vote for. They have no desire to get out. The dreams of the kids are to be a rapper or sports star and thats it.
Put lifetime caps on these programs. After 2 years your done you used up your safety net. This will at first cause a huge spike in crime but as a few generations realize they need to actually get a real job or educaiton or they are living in the streets then the mindset will change. It will suck for a while and alot of people will be left out to fend for themselves but we cant keep going down this road we will go broke eventually and things will get much worse then.

3rd kinda goes along with #2 we need to force people to be more responsible for what they Breed. If you father a child guess what your a dad and you better act like it because the safety net only last 2 years for your baby mamma. You better get a job make some money and pay your support of poof your in jail working for the Govt. to pay off your debt. Moms same thing you better figure out a way to take care of your kid or you better not have any. And if your on public assistance and you get pregnant well sorry but your now off public asistance. If you cant afford to take care of yourself then you should not be having sex. Yeah I know hash "were Americans you cant tell me when I can have sex" Well true sleep with whom ever when ever you want but we also dont need to pay for it either.

4th culture needs to change. I know I know free speech and all but just because you can rap about slapping woman and shooting cops or head bang to raping woman and killing dogs does not mean we should. Maybe we dont need to play viedo games about killing and stealing like Grand theft Auto ( I actually like the game but would never allow my kids to play it) Free Speech is great but at some point it has a neg effect on our culture. I also think we need to return religion to our schools (SHOCKER) but you know what like it or not we were founded on christian values and even if your not religious learning to respect others, treat everyone with respect and dignity, love your neighbor no matter what are good values and if we had more of that in our schools it would help carry over to other parts of life. Im not saying we need to teach a specific Cathloc or baptist, or insert religion here but the principle of what Jesus really stood for not what churchs of today have become. Dont even need to call it religion but the behaviors are important.

5th we need more jobs and to bring old jobs back home. Less global more local. We are not a one world Govt we need to be the United States Govt. Put higher taxes on imports I dont care if it causes a trade war and people dont want to buy our products (which are not even made here anymore anyway) Lower taxes for companies that still produce products here raise them on companies that dont. It will cause higher prices but if the quality is better and things last longer then it will even out in the end.

6th close the borders to illegal immigration. We have 100s of thousnads of really bad criminals rapists murders gang bangers that come here to hide or make money ect. Shut the borders down and have a better system for legitimate law abiding people to come here that will be productive members of society.

7th We need to improve our education system for the modern world. My wifes friend teaches remedial english classes at the local college for incoming freshman. These kids all graduated High school and cant write a basic term paper. I was talking to her the other day she said 45% of incoming freshman so far this year need to take that class. She said they also have math classes just like it where they teach basic math skills. In my opinion the Fed Govt needs to disband the Dept of Education and let the states run the schools how they want. Kids in the midwest farm lands are different then kids in an East Coast urban area but the Feds standards dont allow for the difference. Id also like to see more emphasis on vocational skills not every kid needs to go to college yet all highschools are trying to prep kids for college.
On a local lvl Id like to see uniforms in all schools we have a few schools here that do it and they generally have lower fights and bully complaints because everyone wearing the same thing. With that we also need to open more preschool programs, after school programs, School Sports, art and music programs.

8th Id like every state to be a must issue state when it comes to Conceal carry permits. If more people are armed it will make people think twice about robbing them. Look at what Renzo Gracie says " walking was my option, thank you mayor Giuliani, nobody carries a gun in our Beautiful state, my lucky day," Dont think for a min criminals dont think the same thing. They know they are free to prey on people without fear.

9th We need communities to take control of there own streets and neighborhoods. You cant just depend on police officers look at Baltimore City for example there are about 620000 people living in the city limits and only about 4000 officers of that say 400 are office staff and adminstration so they are not on the streets so you have 3600 cops in a city of 600K police cant do it alone. People need to take charge and stop allowing thugs and criminals run there streets,


Im sure there is alot more that needs to be done and prob better ideas then mine but I dont know them if I did Id be a rich man but for now Ill keep my head on a swivel, my vest strapped tight, and try my hardest to make sure I get home to my family at the end of my shift

 

[ballen0351]

PS sorry for the long post but its not a simple problem and sorry for grammer and spelling Im a sleepy boy.

 

[WC_lun]

Ballen, I cannot agree with some of your points, but most I do so greatly.

Crime is actually lower than in the recent past. It IS still a terribly important issue, but those that prescribe to "the worst ever' scenario are overstating a bit.

There is no simple answer or answers. It is a complicated problem and as much as we wish it to be, it cannot be addressed with simple easy answers or in a short amount of time.

Part of the problem is societal. In poor and even middle class nieghborhoods, being a criminal does not hold a great social stigma. It is viewed as even the norm in many nieghborhoods. In some families, being a criminal is just taking up the family bussniess. Having money and the inability to have empathy for anyone else is encouraged and even glorified. As a young man in my old nieghborhood once told me, "I gots mine, f____ everone else." As long as this attitiude and the acceptance of crime as a normal part of life, it will be very hard to change anything.

Education can do more to lift a person out of poverty than just about anything else. However, in the same societies that are glorifying crime, education is looked at negatively. Its viewed, at the minimal, as a waste of time. Entire families, generation after generation, do not pursue even educational oppurtunities that are out there. We add to the issue when we force teachers in poorer nieghborhoods into teaching large class sizes, in building with no A/C, and classrooms with not enough text books. Then because of anti-government push back, we start cutting teachers' salaries. Is it any wonder that education is viewed with distrust in many parts of our society? The government itself is telling these people, "You aren't worth the money to properly fund your schools."

It is pervasive throughout our society that "greed is good." It puts forth the idea that striving for money so you can hold power is primary to the morality of what you do. This is not limited to a socio-economic class. Read a few newpapers and you'll see it is a celebrated and prevailant idea, though getting caught isn't viewed with quite the same heroism. This viewpoint is integrated into our DNA it seems.

Welfare and support programs do need to change. Welfare is a helping hand, not a hand out. If you are defrauding the system then you need jail time and you should be banned from further access. Yes, it is increasing government, but there needs to be more employed to audit accounts and find those who are milking the system. Most people on social security, disability, food stamps, or other forms of welfare are not milking the system, but those that are both cost taxpayers a ton of money and they make it a stigma to ask or recieve help when you really need it.

When President Clinton was running for office, way back when, he said that raising children take a villiage. The idea behind these words are very true. We must put programs in place that celebrate morality, honesty, hard work, and education. Make those values the normal. If you do that, you give these kids, and many older people, something they miss greatly, hope for a better future by doing the right things. Most of my life I have lived in nieghborhoods struck with both poverty and crime, so I cannot view poverty and crime as something I experienced on the job or vicariously through internet stories. Of my elementary class, out of a class of 30 there are 4 of us who have not been to prison. Five of the class are in for very violent crimes with justifiable long sentences. I remember them as the kids I grew up with. They were my friends and not one of them was thinking, "I'll be a criminal when I grow up!" Over time though, the lack of hope of anything better by doing things the right way takes a heavy toll. We need to somehow instill into these kids that there is hope for a happy and successful life by just working hard and doing the right things.

I know I'm not heavy on specific answers. I think that'll take people smarter than I am to come up with.

 

[ballen0351]

Only thing I will say about crime being down is I believe its the way the stats are being reported. In a major city department near me I know for a fact if you get shot and want to me a tough I ain't no snitch guy and you don't tell the police what happen they classify it as self inflicted accident not a crime that happens daily. I've also seen personally with a department I quit them.change crimes stats to make the city seem safer which as far as I can tell is a crime but almost all departments do it so the administration looks good. I know a sheriff department that during the 6 months before an election the deputies are told to stop writing tickets and stop arresting people unless its an immediate threat so less arrest numbers he can show crime is down so he can get reelected

 

[Steve]

Off the top of my head. In no particular order we have:

-Poverty: Which is a relative term. Poverty in the US is FAR different a thing than poverty in "other than first world" nations. With our sort of poverty comes jealousy for material goods vs life essentials like food/water/shelter for the most part. Sure there are some of that sort of poor too, but a large chunk of our poor are not.

The consumer based economy in which we live is largely smoke and mirrors. It relies upon people buying things they don't need and encourages the purchase of disposable goods over durable ones. There is also a predatory element, where banks prey on the young, naive, and under educated. It's what my grandfather (who was a migratory farmer during the depression) called owing your soul to the company store. My mother in law, who is disabled, had amassed at one point over $25,000 in credit card debt. This was about 20 years ago. She had a total monthly income at the time of ~$500, and was paying $400 or so as minimum payments to these cards. Was it irresponsible of her? Sure. But it was also irresponsible of the credit card companies to offer lines of credit far out of proportion to her means.

And it continues today. Ads are seductive. You deserve that TV. Get those rims you've always wanted.

All of that to say, I agree with the thrust of your point here. People have to start living within their means, but that means, on a larger level, we have to address the economy and reconsider whether our emphasis on consumption is sustainable. Because the uncomfortable truth is that when poor people stop buying those things they can't really afford, our economy tanks.

-Education: It's tough to work your way out of poverty without education. Of course a culture that looks on education as a "selling out" is a huge issue too.

The culture that considers education as selling out is, of itself, a position grounded in ignorance. Education is definitely a big part of it, I agree. And personally, this is why I am so strongly in favor of early childhood education programs, among other programs that have been receiving less and less support from Washington DC. Every child who graduates from high school and goes to college is one less child running with gangs or getting into other trouble.

-Parenting: Don't need to elaborate on this too much I assume? Linked strongly to education...if the family doesn't care about it, neither will the student.

What would you do about this? How do you address poor parenting? How would you distinguish between a poor parent and a good one? The way I see it, there are a million ways to raise a quality human being. But it's largely performance based. What I mean is, you don't always know until you've seen the results.

Personally, I like seeing no cost parenting classes offered to people in areas where there is a need. They won't reach everyone, but it's a start.

More effective are programs and institutions that provide surrogate family situations for kids who have little support at home. Whether it's subsidized sports programs, boy scouts, boys and girls clubs, community centers, martial arts dojos or a neighborhood choir, when kids are a part of something, it occupies their time, keeps them off the street and exposes them (hopefully) to positive role models.

The point I made before is that, because we are gutting social programs, a lot of these venues are disappearing. I know that to play football, basketball or any other sport at my kids' high school costs a pretty good chunk of change out of pocket from the parents. Not everyone can afford it, and in a lot of cases, the kids who could most benefit from being on the football team are the ones unable to do so.

-Media: While perhaps not "melting our brains", you can't convince me that the glamorization of crime/violence doesn't have an impact on those young enough to have their worldview formed by it in the vacuum created by lack of parenting. Heck just think of the entertainment that's popular these days. "Breaking Bad"..."Sons of Anarchy"...“Prison Break,” “The Sopranos,” “Dexter,” Then there is video games....

We also have to stop pretending that there is only liberal bias in media.

I do agree with you that glorifying crime isn't a good thing.

-Culture: There is no denying that some cultures in the US don't put a premium of "success" as we would define the term. It's better to make money dealing drugs than it is by designing the next I-device. One will give you status within your circles while the other can have you labeled a "sell-out". The whole push in society towards "relativism" bears a bit of the burden IMO. We cant label people as good or bad..actions as right or wrong. We get looked down on as "judgmental" ("Who are YOU to judge ME??") when we try to set standards for behavior.

I'm not sure I agree with this one.

-Youth: The young have always been and will likely always be prone to poor decision making.

But they're also the future, and in large part, our greatest area of opportunity in just about every way. Whether it's reducing crime or encouraging innovation, our chances of making significant gains is largely with kids.

The fact of the matter is that Crime is like a game of whack-a-mole. If you do the right things it's a slow game you can keep up with...if you dont it runs away on you. But to think you can turn it off? Never gonna happen.

There will always be crime, but throwing up our hands and giving up isn't an option. Also, in my opinion, pretending that what we're doing is working is also not an option.

I'll post more when I have some more time.

 

[Tgace]

What can we seriously change...and how do we do it? How do we change a society where a fancy car with spinner rims is considered a life goal?

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[Tgace]

And there are many programs out there already. I'm not sold on the idea that simply making more is the solution...

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