stealthness
White Belt
Can a person with serious criminal conviction be allowed to train in martial art as means to redeem himself?
Redemption can martial training help?
- Thread starter stealthness
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DeLamar.J
3rd Black Belt
Who decides when the person is redeemed? You must have an authority on redemption right?
To be honest, I'm probably wouldn't train someone with a "serious criminal conviction" assuming that history had something to do with violence. If someone is looking for redemption, MA probably isn't the place for it, they should go volunteer somewhere and do the general public some good.
Lamont
Lamont
NO!!!! I wish I had the video of the 2 convicts practicing attack moves from various cuffing position...Guess who would have been on the recieving end of these attacks?? They didn't know they were on camera..Their cells were raided and the Karate book s removed...
DeLamar.J
3rd Black Belt
I hooked up with some guys where just released from prison, and when some of thier friends were released I started training with them also. They some of the toughest martial artists I have ever trained with. In prison they had to fight alot and became very tough, and very mean in close quarters fighting. You would be very surprised how much you can learn from someone who has done an 8 year bit in prison.
Some people come out better, some dont. As far as martial arts training goes, I will train with anyone, including violent criminals. But there is a big difference between a personal training partner, and just an associate.
I will train with anyone, but I wont let just anyone in my private life like I do a personal student.
Martial arts are for self-defense and self-improvement; if you're looking for redemption, try religion or community service.
Amen...
DeLamar.J
3rd Black Belt
Violent convicts respect violence. If you can hurt them, they respect you, and take what you have to say seriously. Once you gain their respect through violence (kicking their ###), you can teach them about being a better person. But you must first gain their respect in the only way they understand. If you truly want to help them, you must be able to hurt them first.
I myself don't see any meaningful redemption for the person you're describing other than a sincere and sustained effort to help repair the damage they did. Doing something to make yourself feel good about yourself or whatever has nothing to do with any sense of redemption worthy of the name. MA very likely will make someone feel good about him/herself. But how on earth can it help anyone injured by a `serious criminal' action, or their family, or their friends?
w.kaer
Green Belt
Can a criminal be allowed to train? Yes they can. Should they? That would be another question. I would think a lot of consideration would be given to the nature of the offense. Was it violent or not? Did it involve victims or not?
It is easy to speak in the absolutes that the label "convicted criminal" brings with it. I don't believe that the MA's alone can be the redemption. Redemption must come from internal change and true repenting. I don't believe in making an across the board prohibition on criminals training. I would like to think that sort of thing may be taken on case by case basis.
It may sound a bit naive. I am not naive enough to believe that every criminal that may inquire into training are going to be completely reformed. It is difficult to teach old dogs new tricks, but it isn't impossible. Who are we to make and pass the final judgement on anyone?
MHO--Walt
Redemption has little, if anything, to do with the means, and everything to do with the person. Redemption can only occur when the person is fully commited to changing. This isn't to say the person has to do it alone, everyone needs some help at some point. Perhaps the physical arts (i.e. kenpo or judo and such) are not a good starting place, maybe help lies in an internal art like Tai Chi. But it all depends on the person, not the means they choose.
Kenpojujitsu3
Master Black Belt
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My thoughts exactly.
whitedragon_48
Yellow Belt
I've worked in Law Enforcement and Corrections a good 12 years now. I've seen very little of them actually change their ways. Criminals are not like us, guys. They have a different set of values. Stop thinking that the same rules applied. I don't mean that everyone that's been to jail over some BS charge is a career criminals, I'm talking about repeat violent offenders.
I've seen some guys in prison that are MA experts. MAs only make these guys more dangerous here and on our streets. Violent criminals lack the mechanisms to control their impulses, therefore, they act on them. MA will only make them better at crime. You cannot teach them self-control, so MA will not redeem them; the only thing we'll have is a criminal that can now defeat the arresting officer, possibly killing him.
They want redemption? How about giving back to the community? Or maybe getting an education? Guys, there was a time I did believed everyone could change given the chance, now, I see how naive that thought is.
I've seen some guys in prison that are MA experts. MAs only make these guys more dangerous here and on our streets. Violent criminals lack the mechanisms to control their impulses, therefore, they act on them. MA will only make them better at crime. You cannot teach them self-control, so MA will not redeem them; the only thing we'll have is a criminal that can now defeat the arresting officer, possibly killing him.
They want redemption? How about giving back to the community? Or maybe getting an education? Guys, there was a time I did believed everyone could change given the chance, now, I see how naive that thought is.
I hate to quote myself but i forgot to add the MOST important aspect...These 2 were due to be relased in 2 weeks as the State said they were totally rehabilitated....
Amen Brother..I am a street cop and I agree 100%...I too was once naive that was during my rookies days...
I second that "Amen". Now...I think that most anyone can "redeem" him/herself - but that person has to do much to regain the respect and trust of society as a whole first. Then we can talk about self-improvement.
Can? Yes it is possible.
Should? That is the big question.
While I agree with Delamar about you can learn from them some real world approaches and or agression they can help.
While the following is something I would not accept. The Gang Banger or a disassociated family member brings a gang member by who wants to be introduced with the art you study, but then the techniques and questions immediately turn to knife fighting and defense.
Now if someone did something a long time ago and now is a productive member of society and walks in just like anyone else and trains and trains hard then I do not see a problem.
There are situations where it can make sense and others it would not.
Good Luck
The above posts, along with one from Andy in another thread, highlight my concerns regarding the intentions of people who, not only seek fights to prove themselves against unwilling, fully resisting people, but have proven, through the use of insults and challenges, that they have a very predatory mindset to begin with. Now I'm really starting to wonder why it is that the troublemaking crowd wants to test its techniques against all martial arts and develop an unbeatable style. I would rather see police officers be able to subdue repeat violent offenders than to give these predators the tools they need to start killing cops after they've already preyed upon society.
This post only deals with the obvious troublemakers and predatory types from within the "fully resisting" training crowd. I'm not talking about the police and military types who have a valid reason to train this way. I'm simply voicing my concerns about a certain segment of a community that, in my opinion, should be highly self-regulatory when it comes to who they train and why they train them. This is yet another reason to avoid being drawn into a fight where someone may take what they learned from you and use it against someone else.
Just out of curiousity, whitedragon, what fighting methods do the MA experts who end up in prison seem to utilize? I'd like to have a clearer picture of exactly what type of predators I might have to deal with so that I can adjust my training accordingly. BTW, thanks for the heads up. I usually like to take the avoidance route but knowing what you're up against is a very important part of self defense, in my book.
Thanks again, Drac and whitedragon, for the heads up.
Respectfully,
Fu Bag
whitedragon_48
Yellow Belt
Just out of curiousity, whitedragon, what fighting methods do the MA experts who end up in prison seem to utilize? I'd like to have a clearer picture of exactly what type of predators I might have to deal with so that I can adjust my training accordingly. BTW, thanks for the heads up. I usually like to take the avoidance route but knowing what you're up against is a very important part of self defense, in my book.
Thanks again, Drac and whitedragon, for the heads up.
Respectfully,
Fu Bag
I've seen many. I have an ex-TKD champion that I recognized from the early 90s. I've seen Kickboxing, Karate, Wing Chun, JKD, Kung Fu, Aikido, Boxing, BJJ, Judo, Jujutsu, Kenpo, etc. These guys even secretly train their homeboys. I've caught'em doing so many times (its against policy here). Why is that a problem? Well, if we have some "lifer" learning say, Kali now when he gets his hands on a "shank" (knife) we have a bit of a problem don't we? The same applies on the streets. Enough of my brothers and sisters spill their blood every year on the streets with criminals as they are.
On a side note, I read sowhere that gang members are actively sending their members to receive MA and military training to get back to the gang. How great is that huh?
