Recent Video by Alan Orr

[dudewingchun]

I hadn't thought of the asbergers possibility, but you may be right. As far as Alan Orr goes, I find his stuff pretty impressive. Now that's just based on watching videos of him and his fighters. Oh, and from the input of people like you who have worked with him. Someday I'd like to meet the man in person.

I don't think the others meant any disrespect. It's just that Hendrick's posts and videos really bring out the snarky side of almost anybody!

Im pretty sure he does have it or something similar. I think Alan has no problems touching hands with anyone in person. So if you are ever in New Zealand go and check him out.

 

[geezer]

I'm not sure why Xue thought he saw an Escrima influence here. I don't see it. His observation about it being like a very physical taiji made more sense.

@dudewingchun: Go to New Zealand and meet Alan Orr? If I win the lottery, you can bet I will! There are a few others on that list too.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Thx for sharing. I disagree with his "if I step while under pressure I release my structural control" bit. I could be misunderstanding him/his demo; but if you know how to step, the footwork angle, combined with concepts of 2nd form...then stepping while under pressure when done correctly can be tactically advantageous. Secondly, by releasing pressure with proper footwork, you are essentially complying with not fighting force with force.

Is this the kind of stuff he is learning from Chu who is learning it from Hendrik?

I was going to say the same thing about stepping back while under pressure. But I think he's only referring to the current position that he's in with someone pushing his upper body. I can think of numerous reason why someone should be stepping back when dealing with pressure.

The rest is similar to Tai Chi concepts by creating an unstable object to push against. The only thing I would caution is that this only works when the person is in certain positions. It's not going to work against someone who is attacking the root. It also won't work against someone who doesn't push beyond their root. I could push this guy and be fairly safe against his counter so long as I don't push (extend) beyond my root. The wider my stance is the more stable I'll be and the longer I'll be able to extend my push. I'm not sure if anyone noticed but he was doing quite a bit of leaning forward. If Wing Chun is like other kung fu systems then leaning forward is definitely not encouraged.

If someone pushes against me and I catch them leaning against me as a way to resist, then I'll stop pushing and start pulling, as they try to regain their balance from the pull, I'll push again but from a different angle. But I don't take Wing Chun so I don't know what you guys teach about leaning forward.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not sure what you are disagreeing to.

 

[dudewingchun]

Not sure what you are disagreeing to.

The leaning forward part.

 

[geezer]

I'm not sure if anyone noticed but he was doing quite a bit of leaning forward. If Wing Chun is like other kung fu systems then leaning forward is definitely not encouraged.

Alan Orr has often been criticized for leaning forward into his opponents. He has addressed this in several of his videos and explained that he is not off leaning off balance. I don't know who is right and I have never crossed brigges with the man. That is the only certain way to know. You really can't judge from how things look on a video. Short of crossing bridges I would prefer to ask the impressions of people who have worked with him and get their opinions.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Folks, Hendrik has been banned. Which means he's not able to defend himself against the things being said about him.
So... maybe we could keep the conversation about the contents of the video, and not about bashing someone who isn't here?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Alan Orr has often been criticized for leaning forward into his opponents. He has addressed this in several of his videos and explained that he is not off leaning off balance. I don't know who is right and I have never crossed brigges with the man. That is the only certain way to know. You really can't judge from how things look on a video. Short of crossing bridges I would prefer to ask the impressions of people who have worked with him and get their opinions.

I'm not criticizing. It's an observation and based on your statement I'm not the only one.
This is the same guy right? If so he's leaning forward. In all the videos I saw of him doing Chi-sau

You can see him lean forward here and you can actually see his root give because of it at 0:22 in the video below.

He may not be "off balance" because the other person is pushing back and that's what's holding him up.
Compared to this, he's leaning forward. It's just an observation. which is why I also stated that I don't know how Wing Chun people deal with the issue of leaning forward in their stance.

 

[dudewingchun]

It looks like he is leaning but the mechanics are not leaning. There is a method. Not that keen to try explain on a forum. Getting over forums I would rather just go train and spar. If you do not do wing chun then why are you commenting on a wing chun video about the mechanics ? Just wandering.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I comment because I learn more about my system when I learn about other systems. While I may not understand his leaning I do understand the other stuff he's talking about because it's not unique to Wing Chun

 

[guy b.]

So this is all about learning how to affect an opponent's structure....how to destroy his balance. If you can do that, then you can pretty much hit him at will! Or sweep him, grapple him, etc. In this case Chi Sau is about how to do that...not how to trade shots with various "Chi Sau tricks."

How does learning to attack the balance of the opponent in chi sau transfer to fighting? What is this chi sau aimed at developing in terms of fighting?

From what I gather, because again.. I don't know the "forceflow" that Hendrik has been teaching these guys.....but it seems to me this is really a way to absorb and then redirect the opponent's force....his pressure that he is applying on you. You absorb it just momentarily and then send it back at him. There is a "give and take" or an "ebb and flow" if you watch him in the video. Since his partner cannot control this, he ends up manipulated and bouncing around like a rag doll.

I see that it approaches chi sau as a kind of standing grappling with hitting. This seems to be a literal approach to chi sau, i.e. that chi sau just is what it is training, and the aim is to fight in that way? But then I don't see such a thing in the fights of Alan's people. Shouldn't I be seeing it?

I think Hendrik has some good stuff. He just doesn't convey it very well in any of these forums, and is not the most tactful guy when it comes to conversations

So is HS a kind of wing chun genius, developing it himself from core principles? Or is he getting it from another person? On forums he seems to opt for the second choice, but many others seem to argue the point. If he is making it up then fine by me.

I do think he has a huge problem trying to communicate what his ideas actually are. I actually don't find RC or AO all that much more helpful in explaining. At least AO does post clips and tries to show what HS only talks about, but there is nowhere to ask questions about it and no feedback given.

I hope that you or dudewingchun can help?

 

[KPM]

I comment because I learn more about my system when I learn about other systems. While I may not understand his leaning I do understand the other stuff he's talking about because it's not unique to Wing Chun

It really isn't leaning. "Leaning" implies that if what you are "leaning" against was suddenly removed, you'd fall down! That certainly isn't the case! Wing Chun puts an emphasis on "forward pressure." You cannot challenge an opponent's balance and structure without putting forward pressure into his structure. That is what Alan is doing. It may look like leaning, but if the resistance he is encountering from the opponent is suddenly released, he isn't going off-balance himself....rather he adjusts, takes a step, changes the angle, etc. There is a "give and take" or "ebb and flow" as I mentioned before. He never loses his root in any of those videos. He simply follows the opponent. Compare what Alan is doing to the video of Ip Chun. Where do you ever see Ip Chun applying any real forward pressure into his opponent's structure? Its all arms in that video, and very little body.

I think it is rather interesting that Wing Chun will talk about the importance of "forward pressure", but think it is only applied with the arms and with a step. When Alan takes it to the next phase and shows it applied with the whole body, he's accused of "leaning."

 

[KPM]

How does learning to attack the balance of the opponent in chi sau transfer to fighting? What is this chi sau aimed at developing in terms of fighting?

---In this case I think it is about learning to control the opponent from the bridge. You are already in contact with the opponent in Chi Sau. So it is about learning how to control the opponent while hitting him after contact is established. So once a fight enters the "Chi Sau range" and you have established a bridge, these skills of controlling the opponent and breaking his balance and structure to gain the advantage kick in.



I see that it approaches chi sau as a kind of standing grappling with hitting. This seems to be a literal approach to chi sau, i.e. that chi sau just is what it is training, and the aim is to fight in that way? But then I don't see such a thing in the fights of Alan's people. Shouldn't I be seeing it?

---It's about learning to control while hitting. That only happens when you have a bridge. If you don't have a bridge you are just punching or kicking. In an MMA situation it becomes really hard to establish and maintain that bridge I think. It happens very briefly. In a setting where its all about punching and kicking, what you are going to see predominantly is punching and kicking! But if you see footage of Alan himself sparring with people in the gym...you see a lot more of what is happening in the Chi Sau videos. I'm sure if we saw footage of WSLVT people in an MMA situation, we wouldn't see anything that looked like the videos that PB puts up either!



So is HS a kind of wing chun genius, developing it himself from core principles? Or is he getting it from another person? On forums he seems to opt for the second choice, but many others seem to argue the point. If he is making it up then fine by me.

---I'm no expert on Hendrik or how he has learned what he knows. From my impressions....he has some pretty extensive background of working with good people, has done a lot of research from old sources on his own, and then over the years has brought that together in his own way.


I do think he has a huge problem trying to communicate what his ideas actually are. I actually don't find RC or AO all that much more helpful in explaining. At least AO does post clips and tries to show what HS only talks about, but there is nowhere to ask questions about it and no feedback given.

---It is what it is. I can't explain how other people choose to justify things. I will say that in the past Alan has spent lots of time on forums trying to explain what he does. He is now to the point where he isn't going to waste time on people that don't seem to get it or come across as simply antagonistic. And this newer forceflow stuff is much harder to explain in a written format anyway. Alan figures that if someone is truly interested in what he is doing, they will subscribe to his mentorship program where they can see detailed explanations and demonstrations on video and he will answer any questions to the best of his abilities. Sure he charges money for that, because he has put a lot of time and effort into it. It really is like attending a seminar with him that never ends. And people charge for seminars don't they?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I just have to say; Nothing agianst Allen, or what he is doing, because it works, but to be honest he is not really taking anything to the next level, nor has he or Hendrick come up with anything new. What he is doing is done in taijiquan (using a bit less force) all the time. And even then taijiquan got it from the Tao Te Ching where it says "The old hard tree breaks and falls when the wind blows. The young tree bends and does not break"

You will also find it in Baguazhang and even in Xingyiquan

 

[geezer]

I will say that in the past Alan has spent lots of time on forums trying to explain what he does. He is now to the point where he isn't going to waste time on people that don't seem to get it or come across as simply antagonistic. And this newer forceflow stuff is much harder to explain in a written format anyway. Alan figures that if someone is truly interested in what he is doing, they will subscribe to his mentorship program where they can see detailed explanations and demonstrations on video and he will answer any questions to the best of his abilities...

I don't blame him a bit for giving up on these forums. And he has posted a ton of free videos explaining his stuff on his Youtube channel.

BTW Keith, if the multi-quote function isn't working for you, perhaps you could at least put the quoted sections of your posts in italics? It would make keeping track of who's saying what so much easier. At least I would find it helpful!

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't blame him a bit for giving up on these forums. And he has posted a ton of free videos explaining his stuff on his Youtube channel.

BTW Keith, if the multi-quote function isn't working for you, perhaps you could at least put the quoted sections of your posts in italics? It would make keeping track of who's saying what so much easier. At least I would find it helpful!

Is "force flow" something new to Wing Chun?

 

[geezer]

Is "force flow" something new to Wing Chun?

You'd think it would be at the core of our training. But this is WC. Everybody has different ideas. No two people agree on anything. Heck, I even argue with myself!

 

[JowGaWolf]

You'd think it would be at the core of our training. But this is WC. Everybody has different ideas. No two people agree on anything. Heck, I even argue with myself!

Yep. That's exactly what I thought it was part of. I actually thought Chi Sau was the internal exercise that develops a similar ability that Tai chi Chuan develops with the push hands exercise. And because of that assumption I thought that's why WC uses the small shuffle forward as a way to apply forward pressure, which happens to be similar to how some other kung fu systems apply forward pressure without stepping.

I guess WC has a lot of internal battles going on.

 

[guy b.]

In this case I think it is about learning to control the opponent from the bridge. You are already in contact with the opponent in Chi Sau. So it is about learning how to control the opponent while hitting him after contact is established. So once a fight enters the "Chi Sau range" and you have established a bridge, these skills of controlling the opponent and breaking his balance and structure to gain the advantage kick in

This is indeed how it looks. Is it an interpretation of the system you are familiar with?

It's about learning to control while hitting. That only happens when you have a bridge. If you don't have a bridge you are just punching or kicking.

What do you mean by a bridge?

In an MMA situation it becomes really hard to establish and maintain that bridge I think. It happens very briefly. In a setting where its all about punching and kicking, what you are going to see predominantly is punching and kicking!

Isn't fighting predominantly about either punching and kicking or wrestling? I don't see another identifiable movement category in empty handed fighting. Of course wresting can be combined with hitting - this happens in MMA quite a lot.

But if you see footage of Alan himself sparring with people in the gym...you see a lot more of what is happening in the Chi Sau videos.

Isn't that because they are doing chi sau?

I'm sure if we saw footage of WSLVT people in an MMA situation, we wouldn't see anything that looked like the videos that PB puts up either!

Poon sau, lap sau and chi sau are training methodologies in WSL VT. They address particular development goals. They aren't fighting methods, so I don't think you would expect to see them in fighting.

If I understand correctly then force flow as shown in Alan's videos appears to be trained in CSL chi sau the way it is intended to be used in reality; as a balance breaking and body controlling skill at close contact while hitting, i.e. a way to mix grappling and hitting?

 

[KPM]

I just have to say; Nothing agianst Allen, or what he is doing, because it works, but to be honest he is not really taking anything to the next level,

---Sure he is! At least for Wing Chun. Watch the videos of Alan compared to that one of Ip Chun and tell me you don't see a difference in how he is moving and controlling his partners/opponents.


nor has he or Hendrick come up with anything new. What he is doing is done in taijiquan (using a bit less force) all the time. And even then taijiquan got it from the Tao Te Ching where it says "The old hard tree breaks and falls when the wind blows. The young tree bends and does not break"

---I won't argue with that! But I'm sure they would say they are doing it in a different way. Hendrik would say this was how it was done in Wing Chun 100 years ago. But we have no way to prove that.