reality

[pgsmith]

marginal response.

In the example given by the young woman in my class - she was _not_ in general public.
She was sitting in a chair on the porch of family house. He was sitting on the porch steps about 3 feet below her
(deliberately) turned slightly to the side and, again, not holding the camera up to his eye while he
crouched down. He held it at arms length, pointed upwards. Like the park police, that's how it
was noticeable that he was doing this. She was not wearing anything revealing - only visible if someone
purposefully got in a position to tilt the camera up her skirt to her crotch.

He denied he was 'doing anything'. Until pics showed up on FB. When she called him out - he thought it
was hilarious, family members blew it all off.

She brought it up in a teen girls class when I ask girls to describe a situation they had a 'bad gut feeling' about.

The man involved was her 20 yr old cousin.

what do you have to offer for this?

If she's a minor, then it is illegal and he should be arrested. The laws on child pornography are both pretty strict and pretty cut and dried. The evidence is on his facebook page.

 

[WaterGal]

Is this topic specifically about creepy photo-takers, or about the fact that sex crimes are mostly committed by someone close to you? The former, I don't think we've ever discussed. The latter, on the other hand, we discuss quite a bit when we do women's self-defense classes. We talk about situational awareness, establishing personal bounderies, and trusting your gut about creepy behavior, too.

 

[jks9199]

If she's a minor, then it is illegal and he should be arrested. The laws on child pornography are both pretty strict and pretty cut and dried. The evidence is on his facebook page.

At that point -- it depends on whether it was "merely embarrassing" or "pornographic." No way to judge that at this point. Again -- based on the totality, I think the family has some boundary issues, and this incident is merely a symptom.

 

[oftheherd1]

Is this topic specifically about creepy photo-takers, or about the fact that sex crimes are mostly committed by someone close to you? The former, I don't think we've ever discussed. The latter, on the other hand, we discuss quite a bit when we do women's self-defense classes. We talk about situational awareness, establishing personal bounderies, and trusting your gut about creepy behavior, too.

Quite so. Most worrisome because he is being defended by other male members of his family. One wonders what else is permissible that should not be?

That's a somewhat different situation than the one in the article. In the article, the women were all in a public place, "exposed" to the view of anyone there. The photographer simply took advantage of that. In the articles I've read, there's no suggestion he was in an extremely odd position or behavior. Enough to call attention, yes, but not a hidden camera attached to his shoe. I'd certainly like to see more about exactly what he was doing, but I haven't found it in several accounts. It's akin to someone who takes hundreds of pictures of cheerleaders at a football game, and sorts through them to find the moments where their skirts are up. Certainly creepy, certainly "odd" -- but he's done nothing illegal according to this judge. (Nota bene: different judges may find a completely different ruling...)

The situation you describe is a little bit different. The creepy cousin went out of his way to set up a position and surreptitiously take the pictures. There's certainly a boundary issue at the barest minimum -- and I bet it runs pretty deep in that family based on the described reaction. But the best defense, as it is so often, is to know the danger (in this case, an absolutely untrustworthy creepazoid cousin) and consciously prevent the opportunity.

Another situationA guy is walking down the street on a public sidewalk. He looks into a window, and stops, staying on the sidewalk, as a lovely young lady has decided to disrobe in front of the window. She's got no shades or blinds, isn't lingering or putting on a show, simply changing clothes -- but he's getting an eyeful. When she's done, she glances out the window and freaks out. Cops are called, and make contact with the guy. Has he broken the law?

Nope. He was in a public place, and he saw something that was essentially in public view. In Virginia, the laws against peeping include elements of trespass and furtiveness. Mr. Hypothetical here is in a public place, where he has every right to be, and did nothing furtive or to enhance his view. Had he entered her property, or climbed a tree to improve his view -- things might be different.

One side note: "public" place does not, in a legal sense, mean what some think it does. Even though it's private property, your front lawn is a public space; there's nothing to prevent people from seeing and observing activities there. Back yards are often similarly considered "public" if people beyond the residents are there. like when you're holding a cookout. As described, the porch in your student's case was likely a "public" space.

I'm guessing by boundary issues you mean the boundaries of behavior the cousin has been taught, and are allowed by other members of the family. I agree. I don't think that would be tolerated by most people; at least I certainly hope not. I know it would not have been tolerated in my extended family when I was young (nor now), nor by friends and neighbors.

Personally I am rather appalled that others in the family, and especially a grandfather, would tolerate such behavior, and not demand sanctions on the cousin. As I said above, one has to wonder what else he has learned as acceptable behavior. I also wonder about the other women of the family. What treatment have the accepted, to accept that without vigorous complaint? If he forced sex on the girl, would it then be her fault again? I suspect the only thing that may save him is to get the attention of law enforcement and the courts sooner than later. He has to learn certain 'boundaries,' if crossed, will have unpleasant consequences for him.

 

[aedrasteia]

That's a somewhat different situation than the one in the article. In the article, the women were all in a public place, "exposed" to the view of anyone there. The photographer simply took advantage of that. In the articles I've read, there's no suggestion he was in an extremely odd position or behavior. Enough to call attention, yes, but not a hidden camera attached to his shoe.

The situation you describe is a little bit different. The creepy cousin went out of his way to set up a position and surreptitiously take the pictures. There's certainly a boundary issue at the barest minimum -- and I bet it runs pretty deep in that family based on the described reaction.

Thanks for your comments. I value your perspective as a LEO and MA.

Actually, these 2 situations are quite similar. In both cases the aggressor took advantage of an existing situation (a woman sitting on a step) and deliberately altered his position in a noticeable way in order to be able to take photos of her crotch.
Both aggressors 'went out of their way to set up a position and surreptitiously take the pictures'. She was dressed and, please note, not standing in front of a window disrobing.

Much of the discussion in this thread has noted that the aggressors' activity is not considered illegal. And therefore, not legally actionable. Making that observation is quite correct. And of no help to the women and girls.

When this situation is presented in class, how do you approach it with young women and girls?
And by 'this situation' I refer to the countless intrusive, aggressive, disturbing actions directed against the
women/girls that do not meet current legally actionable criteria and are undertaken by people ' inside the circle'
of these the women/girls ?

with respect, A

 

[aedrasteia]

We are part of the same movement, a sisterhood! We work together with girls and women not just to have fun together but to make a change. There's a very good advocacy toolkit on this site as well as explaining the campaigns we are part of.
World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts - What we do

Yes Tez, I discovered this in working with a terrific team of Girl Scout leaders here.
I'm wishing you were here to help advocate with the current leadership in our area !!
When the previous regional director moved to another state, the next one changed the focus,
really didn't want to deal with these issues, although some of the individual troop leaders
were very aware that girls in their troops were dealing with harassment and worse.
I will follow your link - I hope other MA posters here will do so too. Everybody needs
more good ideas. many thanks.
with respect, A

 

[aedrasteia]

Is this topic specifically about creepy photo-takers, or about the fact that sex crimes are mostly committed by someone close to you? The former, I don't think we've ever discussed. The latter, on the other hand, we discuss quite a bit when we do women's self-defense classes. We talk about situational awareness, establishing personal bounderies, and trusting your gut about creepy behavior, too.

Thanks so much for this - you make a very clear point. These 2 are inseparable: The 'photo-takers' can certainly be
someone close to the girl/woman. Its a powerful example of the behavior of 'someone close' that is not 'illegal'
and that has a powerful and long-lasting effect on the girl. That pervasive, disturbing behavior is widespread and,
in my experience, rarely (or never) addressed in MA-based classes. Because so much of my classes focus here
the girls/women offer many, many examples. As I said in the 1st post I think, a previous student brought the news article to my attention and described her own experience - the family member who took and posted the photos.

I've added this example to my class material (with her permission). We do e tremendous amount of brainstorming and experimenting on intrusive behavior like this.

It's heartening to know you are dealing with this 'reality'. I'd very much appreciate you posting more
about why you address this and how. Do you do exercises; role-plays; descriptive discussions?
Do you practice (non-force) physical actions? ('fence', verbal broken record) ?

 

[tshadowchaser]

This may be way of base if so let me know
If the photos where on FB why not put up a notice that the photographer is taking up-skirt photos and have everyone share it along with his picture. Also why not put up fliers around town with his face on them with the same message. Contacting the local authorities is a good step even if the courts find him innocent by way of some loophole, at least he is on record as doing this.
In Ma. we now have new laws on up-skirt photos and the people who take them. Not sure exactly what they say but I know up-skit are illegal on subways and in the transit system.

personaly I think the guy mentioned in the OP should be "taken out behind the barn and wiped"

This is a great subject thank for bringing it up

 

[EddieCyrax]

What about a window open to someone's house, does that mean since it's open anyone can climb through it.

I defiantly do not condone the actions of the individuals in the OP.

That said, someone may not be allowed to climb in your window, but that does not stop them from taking a picture......ie google maps....

 

[jezr74]

I defiantly do not condone the actions of the individuals in the OP.

That said, someone may not be allowed to climb in your window, but that does not stop them from taking a picture......ie google maps....

I get that in a lot of cases the written letter of the law has loopholes and conditions and can't protect against all situations. I'd advocate that there are social\community\protective consequences to this sort of behavior. Some may be harsher than others. A reaction like tshadowchaser described is one, and I think it would be up to the individual or people close to the individual to call out the pervert and make a stand using other methods at their disposal. Ideally they would have the support and backing of people they trust, either family or community based groups like the girl guides etc that may be better equipped to handle and advise on these situations.

For me, clear intent is enough for me to do something, my reaction to taking photos through my window may not be as harsh as if I caught someone climbing through. but they may think twice before attempting similar again. Even Google has had to take down parts of the maps when groups and individuals stood up.

(If I had heard of a student in the dojang talking about this kind of thing happening to them, I'd ask that they call the kids helpline and at least listen to what they have to say and offer support if needed)

 

[jks9199]

When this situation is presented in class, how do you approach it with young women and girls?
And by 'this situation' I refer to the countless intrusive, aggressive, disturbing actions directed against the
women/girls that do not meet current legally actionable criteria and are undertaken by people ' inside the circle'
of these the women/girls ?

with respect, A

There's really not a lot you can do. In a public place, we're all subject to being photographed. There's very little that can be done in a legal sense. Be aware of who's around you -- and be aware of your positioning. Sure, there're places that you can't do anything (upper level of a shopping mall, riding an open escalator, going up stairs, etc) because that's just the way they are... If someone is acting odd -- call them on it, or leave. Most of the creeps aren't going to want any confrontation, and will bail. What answers or solutions have you come up with?