Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
HEY!!!
Wait just one minute here...you said
already...
That's it.. I take back my :wavey:
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Real aikido street fight
- Thread starter Brian R. VanCise
- Start date
HEY!!!
Wait just one minute here...you said
already...
That's it.. I take back my :wavey:
How old is your windows browser and what type? what version of media players software are you using? If 3 years old you can get free updates. 5 years old they want to charge you.
Sad when you buy a new computer the preloaded software is already 2 years old?
RoninX, you don't have to catch anything in Aikido and there are many tecniques that would simply put someone down that attacked with a punch or a kick or any other kind of attack. If it came down to a life and death situation an Aikidoka would drop the opponent using the best method for the attack including strikes of his own and then when the attacker is down wondering 'what just happened' the Aikidoka could, if need be, destroy the shoulder, wrist, neck etc. Fight over!
Don't get caught up thinking we have to catch punches because we don't.
Bottom line is Aikido DOES work and is deadly when applied properly!
Don't get caught up thinking we have to catch punches because we don't.
Bottom line is Aikido DOES work and is deadly when applied properly!
RoninX
IMO the learning curves are different. Arts like Muay Thai and Bjj can give you some confident skills in a short period of time (which is to their advantage). Soft styles like aikido, taijiquan etc. can sometimes take a bit longer. The development of fighting skill is focused on a different area. Often times also, people get sick of learning because it takes time. This is understandable.
NOT ALL aikido schools practice the development of 'aiki' properly ( I don't think ). From experience, it is not easy to spar aikidoka who has developed this 'internal skill'. Aikidoka who have developed this skill are so rooted, it's difficult to clinch and take them down.
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IMO the learning curves are different. Arts like Muay Thai and Bjj can give you some confident skills in a short period of time (which is to their advantage). Soft styles like aikido, taijiquan etc. can sometimes take a bit longer. The development of fighting skill is focused on a different area. Often times also, people get sick of learning because it takes time. This is understandable.
NOT ALL aikido schools practice the development of 'aiki' properly ( I don't think ). From experience, it is not easy to spar aikidoka who has developed this 'internal skill'. Aikidoka who have developed this skill are so rooted, it's difficult to clinch and take them down.
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I've never quite grasped the need of some people to put down other arts, nor the need for some people to vigorously defend their arts. What does it matter if someone thinks that aikido is ineffective?
Out of the countless number of martial artists that I've met over the years, both on-line and in person, I could count the number that have actually been in a "real street fight" on one hand. All but one of those were a LEO of some type.
If whatever martial art a person is doing increases their self-confidence, then they're doing something good for themselves. If someone, like ronin-x, feels the need to put down other arts to make themselves feel better, then they are obviously lacking in the self-confidence area and should be pitied for wasting their efforts. An argument over effectivity is both silly and impossible to win as there is only one real way to tell, and the vast majority will never get into that situation.
Just my thoughts on it.
Out of the countless number of martial artists that I've met over the years, both on-line and in person, I could count the number that have actually been in a "real street fight" on one hand. All but one of those were a LEO of some type.
If whatever martial art a person is doing increases their self-confidence, then they're doing something good for themselves. If someone, like ronin-x, feels the need to put down other arts to make themselves feel better, then they are obviously lacking in the self-confidence area and should be pitied for wasting their efforts. An argument over effectivity is both silly and impossible to win as there is only one real way to tell, and the vast majority will never get into that situation.
Just my thoughts on it.
This is all theory. Anyone can creat theories without having to back them up. I can create theories to justify the most nonsense thing in the world. Every single cult in the world has their own theories. How much value do they have?
I don´t need you to "explain" me things, because i know very well the purpose behind arts like Aikido. And i also know most of their theories. What i´m questioning is the validity of those theories. I´ve never seen an Aikidoka perform a wrist or arm lock on a non-compilant opponent. Never. I´ve never seen Aikido being successfully used in a real altercation. The only thing i see is theory, and people refusing to accept the surreality of their techniques. The only people who seem to give any kind of credit to this art is their own members.
Show me a few examples. Not one example, because everything can work once in a while. I want several examples. I can found several examples of a Muay Thai kick being successfully used in several situations. I can found examples of Boxing. I can also found examples of BJJ. But i can´t found examples of Aikido. Why is that?
Every single person i´ve talked to had their own little experiences, where they were able to perform Aikido techniques, wich makes it even more strange that there isn´t one single credible evidence about Aikido´s effectiveness.
It´s easy to create pretty techniques when an opponent isn´t trying to kill you. Yeah, i step off the way, i avoid the punch, i grab the wrist and i immobilize my opponent. Sounds delightful. Now let me see that outside a dojo or a movie. Let me see that against people who won´t let you do to them whatever you want.
I honestly think people don´t wanna see the truth. It was their choice. I didn´t wanna see the truth for more than 10 years, because i loved my training, and i didn´t wanna admit it was ineffective. I´ve never tested those techniques, but for years and years i believed they would work just fine under certainly conditions. But that was nothing but pure theory, and with time i got tired of theory and decided that i wanted to learn something that i know that works for sure. Something i can apply when someone is not gonna just let me do whatever i want.
I can double leg you at any time i want. I don´t need you to let me do it. Do you understand? The same duble leg i perform against a compilant opponent, i can perform against a non compilant opponent. If you are standing in front of me, i´m gonna hit the double leg at least 85% of the time, and there´s nothing you will be able to do about it, unless you are very good defending double leg takedowns. Now try to immobilize me with a wrist lock. Try to catch my wrist and make me hit the ground. You will fail 90% of the time.
Of course, now you will answer with another theory a la Aikido, where you explain how such surrealistic moves would work. But the problem is that that´s all fantasy. That´s all things you create in your head in order to keep believing in what you train. Reality is too much for you.
Oh, and yes, in Aikido there are some moves that could probably work. But those are probably the moves i see being less trained in aikido classes, and generally, when they are trained, they aren´t trained against non-compilant opponents. The lack of free sparring can make an effective technique ver ineffective.
"i´m gonna use what works best"
Well...i don´t know about you, but if my style had 498 ineffective techniques and 2 effective techniques, i would start training only the effective. Or, at least, i would give major importance to them.
Oh, and you´re going to punch me before you perform a wrist lock? Lol. Good luck with that. The average person can punch better than the average Aikidoka. With punches or no punches, you ain´t catching my wrists.
Everyone has an opinion. Some people know what they're talking about and I really enjoy reading their opinions. Some people have no clue and just enjoy putting others down to try and make themselves feel better. One of those handful of people that I mentioned earlier that has really engaged in hand to hand combat, is a LEO for the city of Dallas that I met at the aikido class I used to train at many years ago. He'd been training for about 8 years at that time, and said that his aikido training had helped him immensely in his job. I rather believe his opinion over yours.
Sorry you were dissatisfied with your prior training. Doesn't sound like you're very happy with your present training either.
I doubt you´re qualified to say who does or who does not know what they´re talking about.
RoninX
I have my own opinions that occasionally get me into trouble here on MT, and I am very critical of all styles. So from experience, don't bother continuing this 'debate'. It'll go nowhere.
I am curious though. In your view, what do you think, or better, how do you think aikido could change to make it a more effective method of combat? Is it just their techniques? The strategy? How those things are trained?
What do you think they could change that will make it better?
I have my own opinions that occasionally get me into trouble here on MT, and I am very critical of all styles. So from experience, don't bother continuing this 'debate'. It'll go nowhere.
I am curious though. In your view, what do you think, or better, how do you think aikido could change to make it a more effective method of combat? Is it just their techniques? The strategy? How those things are trained?
What do you think they could change that will make it better?
Hi
First, the training methodology should be changed. Sparring should represent at least 40% of the total training. Any martial art who doesn´t do sparring sessions on a regular basis should not claim effectiveness. People should learn how to apply those techniques against people who are really resisting them, wich rarely happens. If my opponents throws himself to the ground just because his wrist "hurts" a little, how am i supposed to learn? If i´m not used having people resisting, what will i do when somebody does it?
In my old Bujinkan days i would tap just because someone pressed a little bit a pressure point. I would do Ukemi, or also tap, if someone twisted my wrist a little bit. The reality, although all those things hurt, they don´t hurt enough to control the body of a furious person full of adrenaline flowing through his veins. If i wanted to resist to any of those locks, i could have to. They were not enough to control me, and they´re not enough to control someone decided to resist.
This is the main thing that should be changed, but there are also tons of problems with Aikido´s technical arsenal. In my opinion, 99% of the stuff based on grabing wrists in movement are pure fantasy, and will not work 99% of the time. You will not grab my fist in movement. That´s for sure. You won´t be able to do it. I dare anyone to try it on me. You might kick my ***, but you will not do it by catching fists in movement. That won´t ever happen.
I don´t like wrist locks, but some arm locks are actually pretty good, since it´s more easier to control a bigger joint. When you control an arm, you are controling a much bigger part of a person´s body. It´s more difficult for you ou to escape when you have a bigger percentage of your body being controled.
If you are a police officer, for example, some Aikido techniques might be good to control the opponent. But, once again, not for catching flying fists.
My main problem is with people posting videos like that in the first page, saying it is for "self defense". I feel that insults my intelligence, since i can´t picture anyone applying something like that outside a movie. I´m sorry.
An Aikidoka expects his opponent to know nothing about martial arts, and that itself reveals a lot of the nature of the art. I won´t waste my time training something that can´t be successfully used against another good martial artist. That´s not effectiveness.
But, hey, to be honest? Aikido can be a geat hobby, since you don´t actually believe that what you´re doing would ever work in a real fight. Because when you do, there´s something wrong with your perception of what reality really is. Never in your life you will be able to catch some guy´s hand with a knife inside and twist his wrist until he goes to the ground. You try that, you die.
Tanaka
Purple Belt
Sparring is good way of training. But what you fail to realize when you were doing your wristlock drills is this... Those wristlocks would have been follow ups to atemi. Atemi is the great equalizer... it is a distraction. Doesn't even have to hurt that much, it can even be a slap. Now the issue here is that when you do the atemi they are distracted for a short time at which you would have to apply the wristlock VERY fast and to the point. Unlike "Juji gatame" where I can slowly apply it in a controlled manner to where I do not hyper-extend Uke arm. Wristlock cannot work like that on a resisting person. Wristlock can be resisted if it's not past the point of no return. So wristlock has to be done fast and unknowingly to be done against someone who isn't giving it to you. (which can cause injury)
Also you keep talking about not being able to grab wrist in movement. I have seen untrained martial artist grab someones wrist in movement. Where someone threw a strike at them and they caught it. Of course they didn't know what to do with it so they just held onto it and let go. So its far from impossible. My only issue with Aikido are the circular movements it uses. I like to be straight to the point and cause damage or get them out my way. But that's my own cup of tea.
That wasn't 'someone', that was me and you chose to ignore all my questions and my comments on the different techniques.
And your quote of Bas Ruten was also liberal with the truth.
I'm afraid most of your comments show a total ignorance of many of the MAs and I often have to bite my tongue.
No problem with the first part, that is an opinion you can state.
The second part is your comment that is IMHO and many of the others, wrong.
If you are into a 'sport' martial art you would spar more than a traditional empty hand form of MA but to say what you stated has no basis that you could quote.
Are you suggesting aikido doesn't use arm bars? Whether you like wrist locks or not is irrelevant. We train wrist locks against full resistance for the very reasons you state. If I can't make them work against resistance then they would be worse than useless. Done properly, they will work but unless you train resistance you won't know how to make them work.
All civilian forms of self defence were designed to be used against untrained thugs. I asked you about that earlier but you declined to answer. If I want to fight another good martial artist I will train for that. That means train for sport. I did show you the type of training I favour ... that was the Bas Ruten video. You don't spar that type of self defence. I asked you about certain techniques in the video. You ignored the question. I asked you what you thought was an effective MA and you ignored the question.
I take exception to your continuous put down of other styles. You seem to be the master of the insult. As to unarmed SD against a knife. If your assailant has any knowledge of knife fighting there is a fair chance that most people will die and certainly you will be cut. No MA including Krav and Systema will guarantee you safety against a knife attack. Why pick aikido as the MA that is ineffective? At least Aikido regularly trains against knife attack.
I don't have a problem with you definition although I would be looking more to 95% for me. The inference is that Aikido would not be effective to that extent and that is an insult to all serious student's of Aikido. Aikido techniques are very useful means of controlling an attacker when you may not want to harm him.
That's about on par with the rest of your posts. You know it all and anyone who questions your position isn't qualified to comment.
Time gentlemen, please! :shrug:
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Bruno@MT
Senior Master
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Do you mean an average person? or an average competition fighter?
It is one thing to talk about effectiveness against joe sixpack, and quite another to talk about effectiveness against a trained fighter.
Hi
An average person. Against someone who knows how to defend your technique you won´t be able to achieve such great success rate, unless you are a much more skilled than him.
For example: I can have a 100% success rate with a double leg takedown against an average person. But against a wrestler, i would fail most of the time.
On the other hand, i would fail catching the punch of an average person almost 100% of the time, let alone an experienced martial artist.
When i can easly apply against a resistant opponent something i train in the Dojo, i call that effectiveness. I call that a technique that works. If i have trouble applying something to a person that will resist using no technique, only pure force, there´s something wrong with the technique i´m trying to apply.
I´m sorry, but this is not how you train in Aikido. In Aikido your mindset isn´t prepared to use Atemi in the way you described. Plus, is there any evidence that adding Atemi the technique would wok? Most of these techniques seem to imply that to have to catch uke´s arm or wrist in movement. How exactly would this work with atemi? You hit first and then you try to grab the wrist? Even with your small half second distraction i see no reason why someone wouldn´t be able to resist.
I´ve seen two fighters being knocked out at the same time. What´s your point? I already said that anything can work once in a while. But, once again, that´s not my definition of effectiveness.
Yeah. Bas Rutten saying most of what you train won´t work. Yes, because in case you haven´t noticed, what people do in Aikido is exactly what he is talking about.
Correction: If you are into something that´s gonna be tested in real situations you should spar more.
You can´t make it work against resistance. Send me a PM and come visit me. You won´t be able to do nothing. I will try to punch you in the face for 3 minutes, and if you manage to catch one single punch and throw me to the ground i will pay you a thousand euros. I´ve done this test. I´m 100% sure of what i´m saying. You can even be the best Aikidoka in the world, that you won´t be able to do nothing to me.
Untrained thugs? Good luck when you find someone who knows how to beat you. Martial Arts are becoming more and more popular. So many people nowadays have trained something. That´s not the best mentality to have. And not even against a thug you would be able to apply whatever you´ve been training in Aikido. Prove me otherwise.
I´m sorry if for you this is an insult, but you can´t expect to come to a discussion forum without having people disagreeing with you. I think your martial art is ineffective, and until now i haven´t seen proof of otherwise. Deal with it! Thousands and thousands and thousands of people feel the same way. I´m not insulting you more than you are insulting me.
Well, if that´s an insult to you, i admit i prefer to insult you than to insult my intelligence, pretending to believe in such a non sense. Lol. 95% of the time? Now you´re just going wild.
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Yari
Master Black Belt
Aikido has many ways, and depending on person and style atemi will differ. I've done styles without atemi, and styles with alot of atemi.
You state that most of the techniques imply to catch the arm.. nope is my answer to that. If that is what you got from training aikido, your barking up the wrong tree. Aikido doesn't imply.
/Terje
You are free to have all of the doubts you wish. However, since you you love to toss your opinions around as facts, how many times have you had to fight for your life? How many times have you had to apply your training outside of sparring or a ring? Between my youth with street gangs and my time in the military, I've been forced to engage in a number of life or death struggles. I believe this qualifies me more than you, who can only parrot what your MMA heroes and training partners tell you.
It's impossible to learn when you think you already know it all.
