RBSD And TMAs: Does One Prepare You Better Than The Other?

[Bob Hubbard]

This is coming from the cranky owner of the site.
Cut the ****, lose the attitudes, drop the sales pitches, unknot the panties, and pull the sticks out.
This applies to whomever it applies to.
If shoe fit, wear it.

I now go back to wading through the hundred or so complaints that have come in in the last day.

 

[arnisador]

Only the "unproven" needs to be tested. I don't need to go find a street fight to get into to find out if my techniques work.

There's techniques and there's the training of those techniques. I can throw a jab well at a bag, but my timing and sense of distance with it is not so great. The jab is an excellent technique--but I need to train mine better and with more liveliness. I found this out by having someone at class, in free-sparring, keep timing my jab, dodging it, and counter-punching me. (It was very frustrating. When I'm healthy again I intend to work on it.) Good technique, inadequate training.

So, in my opinion it's the training of the techniques that must be tested. There are better and worse choices of martial systems for various needs, but you can make a wide variety of things work for you if you actually test your training under circumstances involving a resisting opponent.

I also am smart enough to know that adding all this "safety gear" changes the equation. A RedMan suit, padded weapons, and "do not hit" zones makes for a safe environment. It doesn't make for a "Real" environment.

It does change the equation, but for the most part it's for the better. I think the Gracies, boxing, and Muay Thai have gone a long way toward settling the issue of what's more effective--a "safe" sport or a "deadly" art that a person can't fully train and test. Everyone who says "If I was mounted/put in the guard by someone I'd just bite him/gouge his eyes/break his fingers" needs to try that with a BJJ blue belt. It ain't that simple. But yes, you can still fool yourself.

To answer the OP question, TMA is better, if trained under an experienced instructor who really understands the art, if trained with a mind able to really see it.

Well, it's not obvious to me either way. Most TMAs cover a wider range of possible scenarios but keep some questionable and untrainable/untestable moves. I like the greater depth of a TMA, personally, but have met RBSD-style people who can cover all reasonable situations fairly well.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

A Swiss Army knife and a MultiTool are both great things to have, but I wouldn't want to have to build a house, repair a computer, or fix my car with one if I had a choice.
TMA/MMA/RBSD/etc all have their places in the tool box.

 

[Xue Sheng]

A Swiss Army knife and a MultiTool are both great things to have, but I wouldn't want to have to build a house, repair a computer, or fix my car with one if I had a choice.

MacGyver would

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Yeah, but he can build an anti aircraft battery out of a pen, a bike wheel, and underwear elastic. I'm not that good. Yet.

 

[Dark Gift Concepts]

MacGyver would

Now that show I miss..lol He made the coolest stuff

 

[The Last Legionary]

Out of respect the countless "will you shutup already" notes posted, I'll do that.

Last word - MacGyver Rocks!

 

[godan]

Traditianal martial arts are no good in a steet encounter.
For street encounters you need to practise aggainst attacks you will face in the street .
Both traditianal martial arts and R.B.S.D have there place. Only R.B S.D will prepare you better for the steet.

 

[MJS]

Traditianal martial arts are no good in a steet encounter.
For street encounters you need to practise aggainst attacks you will face in the street .
Both traditianal martial arts and R.B.S.D have there place. Only R.B S.D will prepare you better for the steet.

While I don't necessarily disagree with you, I'd say that alot depends on how one gears their training.

 

[Ninebird8]

My opinion is short and sweet: the style does not matter, it depends upon the teacher and the student. I have had three teachers, all world known: one said he basically could show you techniques, but only real way to learn how to fight is to fight, and use the techniques in the situation. Second master, we would fight using our animal styles every day in full contact, with no pads, and use your style and technique against others with different movements and style. We also went through extreme Shaolin old style body training until we could barely make it to the car every day. My third teacher, believed that it was not what your opponent did, but what you failed to do that mattered, and would allow light contact until a certain level and then fight accordingly. In all instances, plus fighting many from other styles and full contact in Hong Kong, a couple of conclusions: 1) One must eventually fight, in a controlled and uncontrolled fashion, to understand true pressure and ability to react to changing conditions under adverse circumstances 2) The traditional martial arts are in some cases not so traditional. IF they are truly traditional, they will not kickbox, will not fight with pads, and the teacher will ensure that no one is harmed but at the same time bring some reality to it. Unfortunately, tournaments have made alot of fighting pitter pat and point fighting, so people get a false security, see Olympic tae kwon do fighters who will admit they might have an issue on the street. 3) As an example, though I am long time Kung fu and tai chi, the differences I see in tae kwon do as a sport in the US v. what I saw from Korea when I was in Hong kong is night and day. 4) No matter what the style, until one leaves the "technique" arena, stops training and starts practicing, and achieves naturalness in their movement, TMA will always be stuck. 5) What is neglected in both TMA and the RB arts are the foot movement and use of waist, as well as root. In both arenas, foot movement is usually never taught, and thus almost everyone can attack but few can defend simultaneously. I have yet to see one MMA or UFC fighter with a decent defense against attack. I do agree it is better to perfect three techniques well than 50 not so well. Too much to think about. 6) Lastly, will finish where I started.....it is up to the students, the teachers, the competitors, etc. to make the art realistic, applicable, and sustainable. The basis is there in the TMA, but has been lost. If the TMA were not reality based and tested, they would have not lasted this long...after all, whatever style still propagated today would not be here if not battle tested over time as humans have a tendency, especially in warfare, to evolve and use what works...to do otherwise, is to lose and die!!! My humble opinion.

 

[kaizasosei]

sometimes yes, sometimes no. i gather it depends on the instructors and their experience.

however, i believe that at the end of the day, there is more knowledge to be gained from the various traditional martial arts than modern ones. however, for every rule, there are exceptions.

Someone that completely ignores tma, may well be lacking in many basic skills.

so the ones that do not endorse tma are simply displaying their fears and insecurities. if you know every art, you can know most every enemy. but if you don't even check out what others can do, then i can understand having insecurities. even though you say blue 'i don't care for that crap', when someone pulls that **** on you, things may turn too red too fast because the one that is upholding the mystery is the same one that is trying to debunk it.

not saying there's no mysteries.... i know of many mysteries in the martial arts...both traditional ancient and modern. and i love learning all i can.

 

[Sukerkin]

Ninebird, would you like to edit your post to put it into readable paragraphs? I'm sure that there's a deal of cogent good sense there but people simply will not read it as it is.

Godan, that line of reasoning has been used many times and I've never been convinced by it. What were what are now the TMA's developed for in the first place? They were unarmed arts studied as an adjunct to the armed repertoire of soldiers.

If it is the case that students of a style find that they cannot use it for self defence then they were taught incorrectly either in terms of technique or focus.

Of course it does depend rather on the individual too. Some people are born fighters and some are not (it tends to be about 5% of any students of an art, craft or science that are markedly 'better' than everyone else).

 

[kaizasosei]

Just got back from my first freefighting training here in europe, as i have some experience from japan already.

one thing i noticed is the raw power and extreme contact that one can experience in mma. i think there's no way around training that intensely.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The question is right in the title of this thread!:ultracool

Do you feel that the Reality Based arts teach in a more effective manner than a TMA? For reference purposes, the RBSD arts would fall into the category of folks like Tony Blauer, Peyton Quinn, Marc "Animal" MacYoung, and arts such as Krav Maga. Your TMAs are: TKD, Kenpo, Shotokan, etc.

We have a great mixture of people here on Martial Talk, so I'm hoping we'll get some good debating!

Without reading all eight pages, I'll just jump in cold. If you want to learn self defense quickly, yes, the RBA will get you there faster than the TMA. As was mentioned on the first page, RBA focuses on simple, easy to master techniques that will work effectively in a self defense situation (by simple, I don't mean pedestrian, so much as more direct).

TMA gives you a lot more techniques, but you have to pick out the ones that are best suited to you. In an honest and authentic traditional martial art, you will be prepared just as you would in reality based arts, but it will take longer. A traditional martial art generally encompasses more than just self defense and is designed to last a lifetime, while and RDA is designed to give you immediate skills to preserve your life.

Plus, since Taekwondo was mentioned, I feel it necesary to say that if you train for sport only, you're not even in the conversation, as a sport only school won't train you to survive an encounter on the street, just as Krav Maga won't train you to win in competition.

One last comment: most TMA dojos are not really traditional. Lets face it, McDojos dominate the TMA landscape, just as McDonalds and to a lesser extent, chain family restaurants (TGI Fridays, Applebees, Ruby Tuesdays, etc.) dominate the restaurant landscape. If you practice your TMA at such a place, unless you take measures to address practical self defense, chances are you're getting a martial based fitness program that will not prepare you in any way for an SD scenario.

Just a few thoughts.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Of course it does depend rather on the individual too. Some people are born fighters and some are not (it tends to be about 5% of any students of an art, craft or science that are markedly 'better' than everyone else).

Ah how true. We all want to be Yngwie Malmsteen, Chet Atkins, and Ritchie Blackmore, but most of us are lucky to be Ace Frehley and Mick Mars.

Daniel

 

[Brian S]

Traditianal martial arts are no good in a steet encounter.
For street encounters you need to practise aggainst attacks you will face in the street .
Both traditianal martial arts and R.B.S.D have there place. Only R.B S.D will prepare you better for the steet.

Man, that depends on alot of things,but I can't wholely disagree with you.

 

[Imua Kuntao]

If you cant use the old way, you dont have a good teacher

 

[Cirdan]

5) What is neglected in both TMA and the RB arts are the foot movement and use of waist, as well as root.

This has certainly not been neglected at any school I have trained at, tho the focus of course varies. In what arts would you say this is missing?

 

[kidswarrior]

Yeah, but he can build an anti aircraft battery out of a pen, a bike wheel, and underwear elastic. I'm not that good. Yet.

And yet look what you've done with this site. :mst: False modesty will get you nowhere. :lol:

And BTW, I for one like my panties knotted, thank you very much. :headbangin: :wink1:

 

[Xue Sheng]

And yet look what you've done with this site. :mst: False modesty will get you nowhere. :lol:

Yes Bob has done a great job with MT

And BTW, I for one like my panties knotted, thank you very much. :headbangin: :wink1:

ok NOW this is TOOOO much information and MUCH more than I needed to know :uhyeah: