Rank in an art indigenous to a certain country

[RyuShiKan]

If you claim rank in an art indigenous to a certain country should the HQ of said art in that country be able to verify your rank? (i.e. If I claim rank in the Japan Karate Assoc. should they be able to verify my rank for me to be legit?)

 

[chufeng]

Yes

:asian:
chufeng

P.S. All YiLiQuan instructors are required to renew their license to teach, annually. HQ has a list of licensed instructors. All students in any branch school are registered with HQ; so, if someone claims any rank in YiLi it is easy to verify.

 

[dearnis.com]

Yes.
Also it seems tha most organizations not have internet listings of certified instructors/licensed associates. (at least in the US-based groups I am involved with).

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
If you claim rank in an art indigenous to a certain country should the HQ of said art in that country be able to verify your rank? (i.e. If I claim rank in the Japan Karate Assoc. should they be able to verify my rank for me to be legit?)

If your claiming rank in a certain style, my answer is no because there are many shcools or dojo's that have little or no connection to the country of origin.

If your claiming rank in the japan karate association than yes because thier claiming rank in a association.

If I claimed to be a 5th degree BB in TKD but had no affiliations with korea, that dont mean I'm not a 5th.
If I claimed the same rank and affiliation with the world TKD federation than yes I better be registered with them.:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

I agree with Chufeng. If I allege that I'm such-and-such a black belt with JKA, they should have me on record.

I realize that there are, for instance, many Shotokan groups which have never been affilliated with JKA, but each of them has a HQ and a "Headmaster" or "Chairman", and if I belong to one of these my rank should be on record with them.

Then there are those who say that "I hold a black belt in Shotokan" but when asked about affilliation with ANY ORGANIZATION, they baulk.
Well, THEIR instructor had to be certified through SOMEONE who had to be certified through SOMEONE and so on down the line....somebody had to be certified through some group somewhere.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
If your claiming rank in a certain style, my answer is no because there are many shcools or dojo's that have little or no connection to the country of origin.

If your claiming rank in the japan karate association than yes because thier claiming rank in a association.

If I claimed to be a 5th degree BB in TKD but had no affiliations with korea, that dont mean I'm not a 5th.
If I claimed the same rank and affiliation with the world TKD federation than yes I better be registered with them.:asian:

If you claimed a 5th degree in TKD, you should indeed have affiliations with Korea... Korea is the standard for TKD, whether you like it or not. The WTF & the ITF, the military programs where the instructors are also affiliated with the WTF or the ITF, etc. - All based in Korea. I really wouldn't count a 5th dan in say, the French Organization of TKD. Did you know that almost every TKD school in the USA is affiliated with Korea? Even if they call themselves the Northwest Organization of TKD, they are still affiliated with Korea. Tough luck.

 

[Disco]

Since TKD is relatively new in relation to other Martial Arts, all TKD is indeed affiliated with but not all directly to Korea. There are many organizations that have HQ's in their own country. They issue their own rankings and certifications without dealing with the WTF, ITF or the Kukkiwon. Now granted, the head of that particular organization at some point had direct affiliation but no longer. You can receive rank from the AAU TKD in this country and they have no direct affiliation with Korea. They are an American organization. The founder of Combat Hapkido, John Pellegrini has a TKD association not directly affiliated. ATA HQ'd in the midwest has a Korean GrandMaster but is an American organization. Main point is that the certifications received from these and other organizations will show nothing directly relating to Korea. They are not registered in Korea, only in their home country and issuing organization.

 

[Jill666]

I know exactly who I train with, and who they trained with. I hope everyone here can say the same.

I train in Kenpo, and the affiliation is American. But I also train in Bujikan Taijutsu, and can trace my instructor to his instructor, to Hatsumi. My instructor received his rank in Japan, and the HQ is there to verify this.

If that isn't the case, there is something fishy, IMHO. :uhoh:

 

[arnisador]

If one is a member of an organization, certainly. But claiming rank in an art/style? That's not as clear-cut to me.

I could easily imagine someone studying a new martial art in its infancy, before everything was formalized, then moving away and teaching it but never joining the organization that grows around it. I can imagine a Chinese family system that never had an organization or the like. Someone studies, moves to the U.S. or Canada, teaches there, and is unable to reach relatives back in China. Is this person's rank/certification invalid? There may be no HQ of any sort, and if there is it may have been formed later as the art grew and spread.

For Modern Arnis, the main organization for quite some time was the IMAF here in the States. Now control has splintered. There are many people who were authorized by the founder to teach who now belong to no organization because of the political mess. We've been discussing how to verify ranks in Modern Arnis;many were handed out by the founder, Remy Presas, on the spot, with no paperwork. At other times, paperwork was generated and records kept. Poor planning, yes--and most unfortunate for us now as we try to sort things out--but these were legitimate promotions nonetheless. If someone claims rank in the World Modern Arnis Alliance's Modern Arnis, then I can verify it through the HQ in West Seneca, NY. But we constantly meet Modern Arnis practitioners who claim rank given to them by the founder. Often there is no paperwork at any of the organizations' HQs--but we know that that was not uncommonly the case in the past, so we are unable to say that the rank is not valid.

One must distinguish between an organization and a style here. Some styles have many organizations which effectively define sub-styles/sub-systems. An organization may be held accountable, but not necessarily a style--and again, a young style or one that is only recently beginning to be widely taught may not have seen the need for an organization, or at least a strong one, yet.

It's just not that simple to my mind! Japanese systems tend to have good record-keeping but try verifying anything about Filipino arts back in the Philippines. I don't mean Modern Arnis here--I mean traditional forms of eskrima practiced there. You'll go mad trying to verify anything!

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
If you claim rank in an art indigenous to a certain country should the HQ of said art in that country be able to verify your rank? (i.e. If I claim rank in the Japan Karate Assoc. should they be able to verify my rank for me to be legit?)

As a general rule, yes, if you claim rank through an organization or a certain teacher, then it should be verifiable. But this is not the case all the time. Some times when an individual leaves an organization or a teacher, because of politics involved, that individual's rank is denied by the same organization. Would this nulify the individual's hard work over the years? Some times a few experienced teachers, due to some unfair treatment in an organization leave and form their own. According to their own bylaws they get promoted every so often. Over the years I was always told,that through one of my instructors with a major association, we were indirectly associated with JKA. When the big slit happened all his went up in the air. Though my instructor was one of the main architects of JKA and a permanent board member and the highest ranking alive, he distanced himself from the rest. So what happens in this case?

Having said all this, ranking structure in all countries have been abused ad misused by many. I often hear people claiming high ranks in arts that are not really given so easily. These individuals though might be talented, they take way from their crediblity. In most Japanese/Okinawan disciplines, the age factor have been put in place to make it impossible for individuals to claim high ranks. They are not very many individuals in their forties or early fifties that can claim anything above 5th Dan. Ranks above 5th are reserved for pratitioners and teachers with a long history and a track record AT the arts.

Another problem is the standards for rank in different arts and organizations. In Kenpo in general (BB) promotion above 2nd, is due every three years, in other arts and organizations, such as Japanese/Okinawans this is not quite the norm. Usally number of years equal to the applied rank and in some cases plus one, and the age limits. In Kenpo/Kempo the curriculum and the knowledge base is broader than other traditional arts. So what is fair?

:asian:

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
If you claimed a 5th degree in TKD, you should indeed have affiliations with Korea... Korea is the standard for TKD, whether you like it or not. The WTF & the ITF, the military programs where the instructors are also affiliated with the WTF or the ITF, etc. - All based in Korea. I really wouldn't count a 5th dan in say, the French Organization of TKD. Did you know that almost every TKD school in the USA is affiliated with Korea? Even if they call themselves the Northwest Organization of TKD, they are still affiliated with Korea. Tough luck.

It was just an example!

I hope you got the point? :asian:

I do understand that I have never found a TKD school yet that had no affiliation with Korea and probably never will but that doesnt mean they dont exist.

 

[Matt Stone]

To reiterate what Yilisifu said earlier...

Student A was promoted to 137th dan by Teacher X.

We should be able to trace Teacher X to his teacher, Teacher Y.

Likewise, Teacher Y should be able to be traced to his teacher, Teacher Z.

Et cetera.

If this style taught by Teachers X, Y and Z is a well known style, with many different organizations, then which one(s) did Teachers X, Y, and Z belong to? Their membership in these organizations, and the rank they were known to hold at the time of their membership, should be able to be researched.

If Teacher X won't tell Student A who his teacher was, red flags should go up. If Teacher X can't support his claim of rank from the mysterious Teacher Y and Teacher Z, or his dubious claim of membership in the hidden coverty organization that granted his rank is unable to be verified, somebody needs to start asking harder questions...

Personally, I really don't see where style or association/organization are mutually exclusive. TKD has the ATA, WTF, ITF and others... So what? If you claim a 94th kyup in ATA TKD, then we go to the ATA and find out. If you claim it in WTF or ITF, then we go to them. Period. Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun has multiple organizations, as does Choy Lay Fut, Shotokan, Goju-ryu, Isshin-ryu, etc. Bottom line, who are you claiming some sort of attachment to? Some degree of verification can be had in some form or another...

In the case of Modern Arnis, if someone was granted a rank by GM Presas on the spot, then there should be someone, somewhere, that is capable of verifying that. Somebody had to be there, somebody had to hear, see or be party to it in some fashion. Paperwork isn't the only way. Word of mouth works fine, too. And like I have said a hundred times (it seems), at some point you have to be willing to accept the proof offered.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

AH! See, you are missing the point. A fake can always claim that HIS TKD, WINGCHUN, or Moogookaipan whatever, IS NOT the same as the recognized authority, but something his secret "masters"/"grandmasters"/aka drinking buddies, made up on their own and they do not give a hoot about the authentic recognized authority. There is your "get out of jail & free to liar about your art" King of Diamonds! lol

 

[James Kovacich]

I know first hand of two individuals whio trained in the philipines under people who are not widely known and maybe not hardly at all known in the Escrima/Arnis/Kali world.

I'm nat making claims that they received certification, just maiking an example. How many styles do exist in the philipines anyway?

Roy Harris told me when I did a private class with him (who was already certified I'm sure by either Inosanto or Vunak, not sure which) that he was sent to the Philipines to do some teaching and in return for his teaching he asked to be introduced and trained by some masters who would regularly not be open to teaching Americans or foreigers in general.

My point is not the certification issue, just that there are many out there teachiing in the "countries of origin" that the general public does not have access to. I would venture to say that this could probably be said of Viet Nam and a few other countries too.

Now an art like BJJ is traceable. High ranks in that art are not common place, others I can't say because I don't know.

 

[Matt Stone]

AKJA -

Very good illustration. I think that, with a little work, someone who claimed to have received training from such teachers in that particular kind of environment would have little difficulty in being taken seriously. No worries.

It is the issue of making claims to high rank in well known and widely practiced arts without benefit of documentation that causes eyebrows to raise.

I can understand totally if a person got fed up with the politics of an organization and went out on their own. No problem. But they learned from someone at some point, and that person learned from somone too. By having access to at least that much of a person's lineage to trace their authenticity, most questions would be quieted.

In Yiliquan, we had an instructor that thought he was the representative for the entire art. He began deleting essential elements of the style, modifying things to suit his own desires (and with only a whopping decade of experience, no less) and continued to call it Yiliquan. We spoke to him about it, pointed out that without the curriculum as administered under the supervision of the Yiliquan Association what he taught was in fact not Yiliquan, he stopped using the name and symbol. He went off on his own, changed the name of what he does, and continues to teach. Fine. His grading was withdrawn through our association, and though he was once graded as a Senior Level 2, he no longer holds official grading with our organization. Fine.

So if someone started asking questions of him (most of which he would evade, however... that was part of the problem - his lack of ethics and honesty), he could state simply that there was a parting of the ways and he went on his own. No problem. Who taught him what he knew? Easy answer. Then the lineage gets traced from there. Problem solved.

What really ticks me off though are the groups like the USMA that will grant you rank for cash, or recognize you as Supreme Grandmaster for a donation.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
AKJA -

Very good illustration. I think that, with a little work, someone who claimed to have received training from such teachers in that particular kind of environment would have little difficulty in being taken seriously. No worries.

It is the issue of making claims to high rank in well known and widely practiced arts without benefit of documentation that causes eyebrows to raise.

I can understand totally if a person got fed up with the politics of an organization and went out on their own. No problem. But they learned from someone at some point, and that person learned from somone too. By having access to at least that much of a person's lineage to trace their authenticity, most questions would be quieted.

In Yiliquan, we had an instructor that thought he was the representative for the entire art. He began deleting essential elements of the style, modifying things to suit his own desires (and with only a whopping decade of experience, no less) and continued to call it Yiliquan. We spoke to him about it, pointed out that without the curriculum as administered under the supervision of the Yiliquan Association what he taught was in fact not Yiliquan, he stopped using the name and symbol. He went off on his own, changed the name of what he does, and continues to teach. Fine. His grading was withdrawn through our association, and though he was once graded as a Senior Level 2, he no longer holds official grading with our organization. Fine.

So if someone started asking questions of him (most of which he would evade, however... that was part of the problem - his lack of ethics and honesty), he could state simply that there was a parting of the ways and he went on his own. No problem. Who taught him what he knew? Easy answer. Then the lineage gets traced from there. Problem solved.

What really ticks me off though are the groups like the USMA that will grant you rank for cash, or recognize you as Supreme Grandmaster for a donation.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Good point, you give a good reason to change the name of a system.:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

Since there is no universal rulebook governing all martial arts one would be hard pressed to say to anyone ýou must do it this way or that'. There may be generally followed trends. But MA's are replete with politics unfortunately. And I will maintain that rank is relative and subjective and only has meaning in the local arena of a system, not worldwide. I will maintain that one may have a school rank while another has a school, system and home organization rank. Who is more legit? To some the one with the full range of paper. To me the one who can use it the best or teach it the best.

Folks we need to remember the reason, the root reason for a martial system...defense. The 'trappings'that have grown up into it are a weed killing the root. I everyone here on this board stopped wearing rank today, stopped talking about it, stopped worrying about it....would it change what we know? How we react to violent assault? I would hope not! Belts and rank might be the icing....but it's not the cake. Concentrate on the cake, that is what is going to get you home safe to those you love.

Those laughing their way to the bank will get their reward at some point. What comes around goes around.

My thoughts.

:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

:asian: I'm from Spokane, WA. I do not train in goju-ryu but I did take the college course. The Master Tehuro Chinnen has long been known as one of the best Japanese martial artists in the united states. recently he pissed someone off back in Japan and has been Xed from the hierarchy. He remains in business and I contend that nothing has changed on this end. If some old geezer decides that he hates Chinnen, its their loss, I say. Why should he close his doors?

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
:asian: I'm from Spokane, WA. I do not train in goju-ryu but I did take the college course. The Master Tehuro Chinnen has long been known as one of the best Japanese martial artists in the united states. recently he pissed someone off back in Japan and has been Xed from the hierarchy. He remains in business and I contend that nothing has changed on this end. If some old geezer decides that he hates Chinnen, its their loss, I say. Why should he close his doors?

I've heard of that happening. I briefly trained under a JKD instructor right before I met my Sifu. So I stayed with my Sifu but my membership was still active with the other Instructor and he sent out notices to everyone that he revoked so and so'd rank for opening up a "RIVAL" club.

This is the truth, he went on to say that the guy was never higher than an assistant instuctor, which I'm not sure if it was true or not, but why fear a rival club run by the inexpeienced.

Martial Politics suck! :asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

In the case of the Yiliquan instructor that went his own way, it was much less politics and much more an issue of responsibility.

This individual had essentially taken it upon himself to ride the name of our teacher and the reputation our style had earned to gain students. Once he had them, he flummoxed them by claiming to teach them the way he had been taught - which far too many people knew was incorrect.

Where Yilisifu would teach us a new form over the course of a few weeks (just getting the sequence down so we could practice it in its entirety), this individual would teach one posture or position per week. He promoted people to different grades without requiring them to adhere to the established standards and grading requirements that had been around for much, much longer than that particular individual had been around.

Eventually, the reputation we had earned over the years began to tarnish too much to allow the activity to continue. If he wants to make himself look bad, fine. But he wasn't going to be allowed to make the rest of us look bad as well.

As far as Yiliquan in general, and the Yiliquan Association in particular, are concerned, we are really a pretty easy going bunch. Everyone is required to meet the same standards. Period. If you don't know the material, you don't get promoted. But not too many folks are concerned about that anyway... Those who are usually drop out within the first 3 to 6 months.

Just wanted to clarify my comments...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: