Question to all instructors, sensei, sifus ect.

[Brandon Fisher]

Yes I would accept a student in a wheelchair.

 

[Wey]

Derfine what it means to be a TRUE martial artist.

And if one is not a true martial artist, then does if follow that they are somehow a FAKE martial artist?


Actually, as a teacher, you are supposed to bring out the best in everyone that you personally teach, not everyone.

As for why somone teaches if they deny people the chance to try, everyone denies someone the chance to try. Not everyone can be in a class of limited size. Not everyone can afford to pay for classes. Not everyone can show up during your business hours. Not everyone can travel to Japan to learn an art that is not taught outside of Japan.

All of these people end up being denied, but because they do not have a physical handicap, they do not inspire such statements as the ones you make.


By preceeding this statement with the first statement, you most certainly are. You are outright asserting that if I do not modify my curriculum to accomodate a disabled person that I am not a TRUE martial artist, which is a very nebulous term at best.

What if I refer them an imminently qualified instructor who works exclusively with handicaped students and understands the dynamics of fighting in a wheelchair (something that I am unfamiliar with)? Am I now demoted in my MA status because I did not teach them personally?


That is very laudible.

But be careful not to broad brush others who do not agree. Most, myself included, who answered in the negative all cited lack of knowledge or ability on their own part in being able to translate their curriculum to a wheelchair bound student, not out of any belief that the student is incapable.

And throwing around statments such as "true" martial artists is a bit pretentious.

Daniel

All I'm saying is don't judge a book by it's cover.

 

[HKphooey]

My definition of a student...
One who is willing to learn!

Has nothing to do with legs or not.

My definition of disabled or hadicapped...
One who gives up without trying.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

All I'm saying is don't judge a book by it's cover.

Actually, you said quite a bit more than that. Please do not be disingenuous.

Look at your choice of words:

how can you call yourself a TRUE martial artist if you shun away somebody for a disability.

If someone feels that they cannot teach a student with specific needs, that is not the same as to 'shun' someone. The word shun as a different meaning than simply to turn someone away. And of course, there is the true martial artist term, something that I have never seen adequately defined by anyone, but thrown around by many.

Nobody here is judging handicapped students as being inferior in any way. Far from it.

But the fact is that to fight from a wheelchair is a different set of physical dynamics that, honestly, most people are unfamiliar with. I do feel that a system could be constructed for those who are wheelchair bound, but that is not just something that one can slap together. To do so would be a disservice to the student.

Which is why those who answered in the negative did so.

I am not giving you a hard time and I doubt that you meant anyone any offense. Just consider that your choice of words has implications well beyond admonishing others to not judge a book by its cover.

Daniel

 

[Flea]

Is CCR even still around? I'd be curious to know his thoughts on the conversation that's taken shape. This is good stuff. :supcool:

 

[Wey]

I hope I haven't offended anyone, that was not my intention. But, in my opinion, being a martial artist is far deeper than punches and kicks.

 

[MJS]

Is CCR even still around? I'd be curious to know his thoughts on the conversation that's taken shape. This is good stuff. :supcool:

His account is suspended for 1 year, until he reaches the required age of 16, to be a member of the forum.

Mike

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I hope I haven't offended anyone, that was not my intention.

Speaking only for myself, I am not offended in the least.

This is the internet and people have divergent opinions and ideas. The beauty is in the exchange of those ideas.

But, in my opinion, being a martial artist is far deeper than punches and kicks.

I will say that I consider martial arts to be far deeper than punches and kicks.

Personally, I am not particularly fond of the word 'martial artist' unless it is defined specifically. To some, a martial artist is anyone who shows up for class. To others, it is an extension of the fine arts (dance, painting, music, etc.) and to still others, it is something else.

So, when you say something like 'true martial artist', you obviously mean somethng specific. Thus my question to you earlier: what do you mean by "TRUE martial artist" with the word true in caps?

The term is so nebulous that I try to refrain from using it, but when others do, I do like to know what they mean so that I can better understand where they are coming from.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

I hope I haven't offended anyone, that was not my intention. But, in my opinion, being a martial artist is far deeper than punches and kicks.

And therein lies the danger of assuming your way is universally applicable to every one. There are combat systems, even classical ones from Asia, that have no self-improvement aspects to them. One can even make the argument that the addition of Zen philosophy to Japanese MA is a relatively recent occurrence...

Good luck to you.

 

[Wey]

Personally, I am not particularly fond of the word 'martial artist' unless it is defined specifically. To some, a martial artist is anyone who shows up for class. To others, it is an extension of the fine arts (dance, painting, music, etc.) and to still others, it is something else.

So, when you say something like 'true martial artist', you obviously mean somethng specific. Thus my question to you earlier: what do you mean by "TRUE martial artist" with the word true in caps?

The term is so nebulous that I try to refrain from using it, but when others do, I do like to know what they mean so that I can better understand where they are coming from.

Daniel

Touche, good sir. As I sit here trying to define what a martial artist is, I find myself unable to. For that, I do thank you.

 

[ap Oweyn]

It's in my profile; I'm a black belt and instructor in the American Bando Association.

I think many systems encompass enough information that they can provide workable content for a variety of people with limitations. I don't know if you know either John Collins or his student Jason Eagley. Jason walked with the aid of a cane after a severe accident. So, while some of bando was "inaccessible" to him, he excelled at other things.

I saw the same thing with my own teacher, Joe Singleton, and his command of FMA. He wasn't likely to bust out any sikaran, obviously. But there were other important parts of the system where he shined.


Stuart

 

[shesulsa]

An art is an art, but there are instructors and teachers each with their own ability levels, both in practicum and instruction. A great martial artist and a great martial art doesn't necessarily turn out great teachers.

And not all who have challenges are "special needs" persons or differently-abled persons ... some students just have a bad attitude and believe me, it *is* a handicap.

Judge not ... teach well.

 

[jks9199]

I think many systems encompass enough information that they can provide workable content for a variety of people with limitations. I don't know if you know either John Collins or his student Jason Eagley. Jason walked with the aid of a cane after a severe accident. So, while some of bando was "inaccessible" to him, he excelled at other things.

I saw the same thing with my own teacher, Joe Singleton, and his command of FMA. He wasn't likely to bust out any sikaran, obviously. But there were other important parts of the system where he shined.


Stuart

I believe I've met Jon Collins once; I'm more familiar with a few of his students, though he and many of his students have chosen to go their own ways for various reasons.

I never said that Bando couldn't be taught to people with disabilities. In fact, I think I described one individual that I did train who had been in a bad car accident and as a result had little use of his left arm and hand. He achieved First Level black belt before life intervened. He kickboxed, fought in the free hand/middle style events, and generally participated in everything.

What I did say is that I could not teach a person in a wheelchair because I cannot see how to adapt the principles to their total situation. It's different and more complex than simply figuring out how to move while seated. Maybe someone else can do it. I don't know -- and it might be different depending on the extent of the impairment. Regarding the original poster here... I know I cannot teach HIM. Based on the videos, he has significant impairment in the use and control of his arms as well as his legs. I can't see how to make what I was taught work with ALL of the impairments.

That does not mean I can't figure out ways he can defend himself; the two things are very different and not mutually exclusive.

 

[ap Oweyn]

I believe I've met Jon Collins once; I'm more familiar with a few of his students, though he and many of his students have chosen to go their own ways for various reasons.

I'd heard that.

I never said that Bando couldn't be taught to people with disabilities. In fact, I think I described one individual that I did train who had been in a bad car accident and as a result had little use of his left arm and hand. He achieved First Level black belt before life intervened. He kickboxed, fought in the free hand/middle style events, and generally participated in everything.

What I did say is that I could not teach a person in a wheelchair because I cannot see how to adapt the principles to their total situation. It's different and more complex than simply figuring out how to move while seated. Maybe someone else can do it. I don't know -- and it might be different depending on the extent of the impairment. Regarding the original poster here... I know I cannot teach HIM. Based on the videos, he has significant impairment in the use and control of his arms as well as his legs. I can't see how to make what I was taught work with ALL of the impairments.

That does not mean I can't figure out ways he can defend himself; the two things are very different and not mutually exclusive.

I'm not arguing with you. Just saw you were with bando, it reminded me of Jason, and I went with the tangent. Dig?


Stuart

 

[IcemanSK]

Yes I would. I have several friends in chairs who train. Their instructors are good at adapting things for them. I'd seek their advice.

 

[Ninebird8]

It would be an honor to try. One good thing about learning from Leung Shum and Jeff Bolt, senior of Dr. Yang Jwing Ming, it would be interesting to teach chin na and adapt the wheel chair as a movement vehicle or a leverage point for the chin na applications. Also, would teach the person in the wheel chair good southern white crane as it has good centerline blocking and the power emanates from the waist to the shoulder to the hand in its fa jing rather than from the ground to the waist as in Northern systems. Although I have never trained in it, I would thing wing chun would be an excellent adaptable style as well as aikido.

Just my thoughts, but one thing I learned from one of my teachers is to adapt to the changing conditions. As an example, if one is cut during a knife fight or something is broken, essentially one must adapt anyway. I teach my students in kung fu sometimes to adapt by pretending one or more limbs are injured to accept the reality of stilling have to preserve one's life.