Question regarding Bushindo vs Toshindo

[TheStudent]

Can someone explain this to me?
1. Stephen K. Hayes, the #1 individual who brought the Bujinkan to US attention, starts his own variant, which is supposed to be a distilled version focusing on specifically what works in modern situations, against modern attacks.
2. Richard Van Donk, the most publicly visible bujinkan representative, starts his own variant, which is supposedly a combination of Bujinkan and techniques and skills from multiple other grandmasters. This is designed to meet today's needs and be effective against modern attacks.

With this situation, Hayes seems to recieve very negative reactions from most bujinkan members, while Van Donk is accepted as being 100% bujinkan, even if some seem to question his methods.

To me, they seem the same, as far as going and starting their own system. so why are the reactions so different?

Thanks,
TheStudent

 

[Cryozombie]

To me, they seem the same, as far as going and starting their own system. so why are the reactions so different?

Thanks,
TheStudent

AFAIK, Von Donk wasn't removed from the Bujinkan, the way Hayes was.

So, I'd bet that's a start.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

VanDonk also get quite a bit of criticism too!

 

[kenjutsushi]

From my perspective the difference is in the continued connection with the source. Van Donk sells his own version of BBT as well as maintaining his connection to Soke Hatsumi by offering ranks through the hombu as well as a source for Soke's DVDs, books, etc, etc. Hayes has always promoted a seperation from the source. Originally, he claimed soke wasn't accepting anymore new students. Then he changed the name to something else claiming it more modern than what soke was teaching. He gives out seperate ranking and doesn't promote any of the already available information from soke. Kind of like a middle man. Van Donk continues to train with soke regualarly in Japan. Hayes was lucky to visit once or twice a year and only breifly if that. Something just isn't right when you cut your students off from the source like that. Soke always says come to the source but Hayes said, I'm the only source you need. That's how I see it anyway. See this blog, it says alot about how Hayes wants us to view Soke. http://www.stephenkhayes.com/page/3/ read the one entitled "Masaaki Hatsumi visit"

 

[KevinCasey]

That To-Shin Do vs. Bujinkan argument on the Internet is pretty interesting, isn't it? I started in To-Shin Do from day one, so I never really got what the big deal of this supposed "split" is all about. I've trained with some Bujinkan folks over the years too, and we certainly recognize each other's techniques.

I'm reminded of when I traveled to Ireland and met all the white, red-haired, freckled people that viciously hated and discriminated against the other white, red-haired, freckled people. Growing up with the race tension of southern California, black vs. white vs. hispanic vs. asian, it was ridiculous to me that the Irish could get so worked up over small differences. But, I guess maybe something similar but not-quite-the-same is the most offensive.

 

[TheStudent]

So, based on responses so far, the views seem to be:
1) Hayes left/was removed from Bujinkan, so he is no longer a trusted source of information. and Van Donk may recieve criticism (never heard or read any, so curious what they might be), but he is still bujinkan, so it's OK.
or
2) The split is people argueing over differences that aren't really that important.

What I think is interesting is that Van Donk has clearly stated he added material from other sources, renamed what he teaches to "Bushindo" and no one seems to care or even notice. I wonder if Hatsumi knows he has changed and added material? Of course I'm curious what exactly he added as well. He also markets a membership in the ABDA, which is not the same as the Hombu Dojo Membership. He states all you need is an ABDA membership to qualify to train and advance up through 4th Dan. But the Humbu says that membership in the Hombu is a requirement for belt levels and to be considered an active member of the Bujinkan (http://www.bujinkandojo.ca/learn5_join.php is my source for this).

It is this type of stuff that got me started wondering and prompted this thread. Because I see both as valuable, but also equally non-traditional Bujinkan. The difference (to me) seems to be that Hayes is honest about his position and his differences from Bujinkan, while Van Donk seems to be cloaking himself with the legitamacy of Hatsumi (DVDs books, etc.) while actually focusing on his personal variation.

I personally would like to master Toshindo (but lose the verbal "stop!", "No!" and such) as well as master the 9 ryu of Bujinkan in a fashion that both are realistic and useable in today's world. But, I want my Bujinkan qualifications to be legitamate if that is what I am told I am being taught.

 

[jks9199]

It is this type of stuff that got me started wondering and prompted this thread. Because I see both as valuable, but also equally non-traditional Bujinkan. The difference (to me) seems to be that Hayes is honest about his position and his differences from Bujinkan, while Van Donk seems to be cloaking himself with the legitamacy of Hatsumi (DVDs books, etc.) while actually focusing on his personal variation.

I'm not going to try to address who is or isn't on good terms with the Bujinkan Hombu. There are folks who can do so much better than I, if they choose to do so. But, in the end, the simple truth is that it's a matter between the individual and the Bujinkan.

I personally would like to master Toshindo (but lose the verbal "stop!", "No!" and such) as well as master the 9 ryu of Bujinkan in a fashion that both are realistic and useable in today's world. But, I want my Bujinkan qualifications to be legitamate if that is what I am told I am being taught.

If you want legitimate Bujinkan qualifications -- the only place to get them is through the Bujinkan and its licensed instructors. That's not suggesting that Toshindo, the Genbukan, Jinenkan or any of the others that are derived from the Bujinkan don't have good material or something to offer; it's just that the only way to get the Bujinkan credentials is from the Bujinkan.

(By the way... that verbalization of "stop" and the rest is actually a pretty good thing to have in the US. It can be a big factor in documenting that you were defending yourself...)

 

[TheStudent]

JKS,

Good points. I hadn't thought about the legal documentation aspect of self defense. I come from a tournament background (primarily forms), so the words sound misplaced to me. But I see how that makes it clearly obvious to passersby who was attacking who.

As far as certification, my point was specifically Van Donk's DVD course. It includes a membership in HIS program, but doesn't include one in the actual Bujinkan. People who have never seen or read up on Bujinkan wouldn't realize their ranks aren't recognized by the hombu. It seems overly nitpicky, but to be FULLY legal within the bujinkan, I would have to get a separate membership for the Bujinkan (which he offers, but doesn't mention how they tie together), as well as the course.

And, unless I missunderstand, if I get that same membership, then a toshindo blackbelt would be recognized with the hombu. That is the sticking point from what I have read - both sides seem to argue over whether or not the toshindo is recognized within the hombu. But the membership would eliminate one hurdle, and Hayes is still recognized as a shidoshi for the 9 ryu of Bujinkan. It was his 10th dan plaque that was taken down, not his teaching license.

So, could I just simply get a Hombu membership, take Toshindo (focusing on both the modern and the classical to make sure there's no holes) and have both Bujinkan rank and Toshindo as well?

 

[Cryozombie]

And, unless I missunderstand, if I get that same membership, then a toshindo blackbelt would be recognized with the hombu. That is the sticking point from what I have read - both sides seem to argue over whether or not the toshindo is recognized within the hombu. But the membership would eliminate one hurdle, and Hayes is still recognized as a shidoshi for the 9 ryu of Bujinkan. It was his 10th dan plaque that was taken down, not his teaching license.

It seems to me you are far more "educated" on the subject than you initially pretended, so I can only assume you posted this "question" to which you seem to already believe you have the answer to stir the pot.

Go you!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well VanDonk is still a part of the Bujinkan. He also sells Bujinkan memberships, makes many trips to the hombu and is an active member of the Bujinkan. Thus he is still Bujinkan.

Hayes teaches To Shin Do and is not a part of the Bujinkan. It seems that you wish to over look this.



If you wish Bujinkan certification you need to go through an active Bujinkan instructor. That is exactly what Jks9199 said above. If you wish to have current teachings within the Bujinkan the instructor that you choose would also need to be current! That is training regularly with Sensei.

If you wish to be ranked in To Shin Do then train with Stephen Hayes.

Both are excellent choices in my book. However, there is a difference between the two and they are not connected anymore.

Good luck!

 

[TheStudent]

Cryo,
I wasn't trying to pretend more or less knowledge. My question was prompted by having just enough knowledge to evaluate and question, but not enough experience or details to have a clear answer. I wasn't trying to stir the pot, but see if there was some glaring issue I was missing or if my information was skewed. Seems a bit of it was.

Brian,
Thank you for the clarification. I have read multiple places where Toshindo students claim their rank is recognized within the Bujinkan, while Bujinkan members say they are not. Trying to nail down the details (some of the research I did while this thread has been growing) seemed to suggest the Bujinkan membership was the missing piece. Guess not.

In the end, my problem is this: I became aware of Ninjutsu back in the day from reading Hayes' books and truly respect him. But I want the traditional because I like the idea of a connection with a lineage 1,500 years old. Van Donk seems to be a solution, but reading the details in his site seemed to say he was doing the same as Hayes (doing his own variant), but not as openly.

Since I work insane hours, have a family and my free time is very limited, traveling to train is out of the realistic question. So going Long Distance is the only solution. I just have to decide if I want to stay with Hayes, who started my passion, or move to Van Donk, who feels like a "me too" but still has direct ties to the Hombu.

I do appreciate the honest and polite answers I've experienced here. Most other sites are filled with venom and antagonism to the point I don't want to interact with them, just read to see if any facts are mixed in the mud slinging.

Maybe I'll just take both, one after the other. Suggestions on whether I should start modern/distilled then move traditional, or start traditional and move to modern?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

My advice in your situation would be to find a local Bujinkan Dojo and train when you can and attend seminars. Then supplement that training with videos. Personally I would go with Hatsumi Sensei videos but you could also supplement with VanDonks videos. (note I have not seen them) Bottom line though to even have a chance at learning this system you need an instructor.

Hope that helps.

 

[Cryozombie]

Cryo,
I wasn't trying to pretend more or less knowledge. My question was prompted by having just enough knowledge to evaluate and question, but not enough experience or details to have a clear answer. I wasn't trying to stir the pot, but see if there was some glaring issue I was missing or if my information was skewed. Seems a bit of it was.

I apologise then, you just seemed to have your mind made up, and when people pointed the truth out you continued to argue. I hate the politics ******** between the arts, but I also know what the "rules" say and feel like saying "eh do what you want" like so many others is doing a disservice to people who really want to train.

FWIW, I have had Bujinkan Shihan with highly respected names who train regularly at the Hombu, tell me Hatsumi has stated to them that people who train in Toshindo are not welcome to train in the Bujinkan. I'm not talking 8 levels of the Telephone game here... Hatsumi told them, I asked, They told me. 1 step removed from the source. Based on that piece of information, My *personal* inference is that if they cannot train with us, why would their rank be recognized as Bujinkan rank?

 

[jks9199]

As a side note...

Sometimes we in the West have a lot of trouble understanding Japanese behavior and actions. I don't pretend to have any extensive insight -- but from what little I do have, I could see where someone from Toshindo who showed up at the Bujinkan Hombu dojo or another class in Japan being permitted inside out of politeness -- but not really permitted to train. They may not recognize what's going on, because from a Western viewpoint, they showed up, paid the class fee, and were inside during the training. But they didn't realize that they weren't really part of the training...

I'm probably not being very clear about this... THIS article by Don Roley might be better.

 

[shesulsa]

Mr. Roley would definitely be considered a reliable source on the matter.

I want to thank everyone here for refraining from charging forth into the typical internet squabble in comparing these three schools. Thus far, it is the most polite exchange on the matter I've seen in a while.

:asian:

 

[KevinCasey]

As a To-Shin Do guy, I can say that To-Shin Do ranks are totally seperate from Bujinkan ranks. That is also true in the classical programs offered - the classical taijutsu, the bojutsu, etc. We offer a Kihon license in classical material, followed by a Shoden license.

There are To-Shin Do practitioners, especially old-timers, who also have Bujinkan rank. Despite people saying this is impossible, Mr. Hayes has ordered and received Bujinkan rank certificates on behalf of his students, even in recent times.

What that means politically, I don't know. Most To-Shin Do folks just train in To-Shin Do these days. There is still, however, a very powerful sense of lineage rolling back through the centuries and the nine ryu. Especially in black belt training, we feel ourselves strongly and vividly connected to the lineage, historical material, and teachers from whom it comes. I am educated with regard to the publicly taught historical ryu material - yet, I have no Bujinkan rank.

Hope that helps clarify the situation on the ground.

 

[Cryozombie]

*Edit*

Nevermind, Its not my place to say this.

 

[TheStudent]

Sadly, this is very frustrating to me. I really do want to study with Hayes, but it is the direct link to tradition that appeals the most about Ninjutsu.

It looks as though I will be going Bujinkan through Van Donk then. Perhaps I will still "visit" toshindo and Hayes occaisionally, but it is the art he presented first that has the greatest appeal.

Further reading seems to point that Hatsumi is very open to what is taught in the local schools, as long as the bujinkan ryu content stays accurate. So Van Donk's additions would be OK, as long as I can identify them . And, Concepts from Hayes that help me are acceptable as long as they do not contradict the original ryus. So maybe I can find a balance that works.

Thanks to everyone for the info and the insight.

 

[Cryozombie]

It looks as though I will be going Bujinkan through Van Donk then. Perhaps I will still "visit" toshindo and Hayes occaisionally.

So Van Donk's additions would be OK, as long as I can identify them . And, Concepts from Hayes that help me are acceptable as long as they do not contradict the original ryus. So maybe I can find a balance that works.

Thanks to everyone for the info and the insight.

*Sigh* I give up.

 

[TheStudent]

Cryo,

Maybe I'm being dense. What do you give up on?

I've shifted my position almost 180 degrees. From originally wanting to go toshindo and getting Bujinkan rank through it. Now I am going to go Straight Bujinkan, with just using the traditional pieces from Hayes as an extra resource.

So, I've listened to the responses, read the links posted while also searching for additional info, and come to a new decision. I didn't close my mind or my ears (eyes, whatever). So why would you feel like giving up?

One thing I have found in searching the web is that no one does the forms, kamae, etc. exactly the same. One person even posted something about each person finds their own personal form (or something like that). So I am thinking the best way to master something that is NOT easy to learn by video is to find as many sources for the same thing and watch ALL of them. If Van Donk is the shidoshi I am studying with, then his standards are what I need to meet. But seeing others do ichimonji no kata or sanshin no kata or any of the other forms would give me a different angle that may perhaps help the technique contained in the forms "click"so that I execute a true techinique, not a series of rote movements.

I want to include Hayes' traditional work as one of the resources. But that does not mean I'm not listening. So, Cryo, don't give up because I am thick headed. If I missed a point somewhere, explain what I am being dense about, or PM me if you would prefer.

Now to just wait for the year end bonus :boing1which shows up AFTER Christmas, grrr.) so I can start training.

Thanks again!