Lineage Question

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agatanai atsilahu

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"It must be noted that Mr Hatsumi's credentials, seriousness and the quality of his teaching have come under attack by various sources. Some doubt of his really having been a student to Takamatsu sensei. Others claim it is impossible that Takamatsu would seriously have managed to become s繫ke to nine different schools. Some add that even if Takamatsu was indeed s繫ke to all claimed schools and did make Hatsumi his heir, it is still factually impossible that a single man should master nine different fighting styles, plus the side skills necessary to a well rounded ninja, to the degree of mastery necessary to properly claim to be a grandmaster and top instructor. More point out the fact that Hatsumi seems overly generous with high ranking titles : he did grant a tenth degree black belt to Stephen K. Hayes after the latter had studied under him for barely 18 years (and a lot of that time being spent in the U.S. on his own teaching career), which would be ridiculous in any serious, traditional martial arts Ry羶, let alone a school claiming to teach the full skills of nine different arts..."

I stumbled across this while searching for some martial arts info. I respect Ninjutsu, yet these seemed like valid questions and concerns. I figure that some of you would have info, or at least an opinion on this. I think it would be interesting to hear some different viewpoints.
 

r erman

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Ther are many on this board who are probably more qualified to comment than I, but none have yet responded.

You can perform a search here or on other forums and see numerous discussions about Hatsumi Masaaki's unique treatment of rank. When compared to other japanese budo, rank is not treated as seriously in the bujinkan. It is also important to note that the bujinkan does not claim to teach 'the full skills of nine different arts', but draws from those nine traditions.

As far the other things you mention, there is absolutely no doubt as to Hatsumi's training with Takamatsu--besides all of the easily available photos, you can view Takamatsu teaching Hatsumi in the quest video released a year or so ago.

As to the inheriting of nine traditions, Hatsumi actually has menkyo kaiden in several schools outside of what he teaches in the bujinkan. A number of japanese martial artists have titles to multiple schools--Kuroda Tetsuzan comes to mind. I believe he is headmaster and inheritor of five inter-related, but separate, ryuha. Some of the ryu within the bujinkan have very close ties to one another and have been passed down together for centuries.
 

Don Roley

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agatanai atsilahu said:
Some doubt of his really having been a student to Takamatsu sensei.

Seriously, if someone says that there is a doubt that Hatsumi was a student of Takamatsu, they are either pretty dumb or have an agenda against Hatsumi.

In case you didn't know, (not being a Bujinkan member), Hatsumi has a full DVD of the two of them training together, a set of certificates from Takamatsu and Takamatsu did an interview with Tokyo Sports News where he mentions Hatsumi as his student and succesor.

I think you can pretty much lay to rest any concerns you may have considering just how blatent an attack this is by somone either ignorant and/or dishonest.
 
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agatanai atsilahu

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Thanks for the answers, I am not aware of such details and they are helpful to me. Once again, thanks.
 

Dale Seago

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Don Roley said:
In case you didn't know, (not being a Bujinkan member), Hatsumi has a full DVD of the two of them training together, a set of certificates from Takamatsu and Takamatsu did an interview with Tokyo Sports News where he mentions Hatsumi as his student and succesor.

By the way, you can get the DVD here.
 

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Consider this...martial arts is the study of humans moving through space at its purest. Many martial artists believe that the various arts are different means to the same end. Many also say that at the highest levels, masters across traditions move and feel in similar ways.

With that having been said, would it be such an enourmous leap for a GRAND MASTER of an art, and thus human movement, to master another one?

Consider this too, there are many similarities between the ryu in the bujinkan. Would it be unreasonable for a Grand Master of Tae Kwan Do to also master Hapkido, Kook Sool Wan, Hwa Wrang Do and Tang Soo Do?
 

Don Roley

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KyleShort said:
Consider this too, there are many similarities between the ryu in the bujinkan. Would it be unreasonable for a Grand Master of Tae Kwan Do to also master Hapkido, Kook Sool Wan, Hwa Wrang Do and Tang Soo Do?

Good point. It depends.

I can believe that somene who masters Shotokan has a big edge when learning Isshin-ryu. But of course, different arts like Wing Chun, Judo, Systema, etc would be a heck of a lot more difficult. The schools of the Bujinkan are closer to the Shotokan/ Isshin-ryu example than the later.

Many of the arts passed down through Takamatsu are said to have been passed alongside others for generations. Even if they did not start out pretty much the same, it is reasonable to assume that a lot of influence would go on between the arts.
 

Shogun

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I remember reading somewhere that Kukishin ryu and Takagi Yoshin ryu traded Techniques. Kukishinden gave TYR battlefield weapon techniques for TYR's superior empty hand. so they would be very close to the same systems after a while.
 

Kizaru

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Shogun said:
I remember reading somewhere that Kukishin ryu and Takagi Yoshin ryu traded Techniques.
Traded??? Like baseball cards?

The Takagi Yoshin ryu in the Bujinkan has been passed down under the umbrella of Kukishin ryu for centuries. If one were to go to train with the Kuki family today, one would be taught the jutaijutsu techniques from Takagi Yoshin ryu.

Like Don Roley wrote, "Many of the arts passed down through Takamatsu are said to have been passed alongside others for generations."

I feel lucky to be a part of the Bujinkan; 9 is a lucky number.
 

Shogun

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Yes. like baseball cards. I read this information in Koryu Jujutsu by Serge Mol.


Obviously traded is a informal word, but apparently the headmasters of each art trained each other in their own art's weaknesses.

I heard TYR headmaster at the time had a rookie Do Gaeshi......
 

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If memory serves me correctly it all started out with the Kukishin Soke getting beaten by the TYR Soke in empty hand combat, while the bojutsu of Kukishin ryu was superior to that of TYR?
 

Don Roley

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The stories surounding the Kuki and Takagi traditions are..... complicated. Depending on what branch you talk to, the specifics tend to change. I know a bit more about Japanese history than most and I do not want to get involved in the matter on line.
 

Henso

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"More point out the fact that Hatsumi seems overly generous with high ranking titles : he did grant a tenth degree black belt to Stephen K. Hayes after the latter had studied under him for barely 18 years (and a lot of that time being spent in the U.S. on his own teaching career), which would be ridiculous in any serious, traditional martial arts Ry羶, let alone a school claiming to teach the full skills of nine different arts..."

The quote listed above illustrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what traditional Japanese martial arts are, and what sort of ranking system they used. This misunderstanding also extends to what the raditional time involved in reaching mastery actually was.

As an initial point of departure, the above mentioned rank of 10th Dan and the supposedly short period of 18 years fundamentally testify to a modern understanding of the arts ranking system, and the time it took to master an art. This understanding has been in place only since 1882, when Jigoro Kano codified is Judo system.

Traditionally, it was not uncommon to have martial artists certified in multiple martial arts, at a realtively young age. Indeed, the facts of Dr. Kano's invention of Judo, clearly demonstrate this, when you considered the many arts Dr. Kano was certified in, that are no present in what susequently became Judo.

Another martial artist of extraordinary acclaim and skill, whose career speaks to this point, is Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido. It is often noted that he studied Daito Ryu, and his claims are never questioned, even though he studied with Takeda from 1915 to 1919, and then was certified in 1922, after having lived away from his teacher (not unlike the above mentioned SKH) for almost 5 years. Attached find his certification:http://www.daito-ryu.org/Images/tota7.jpg

Additional evidence for this sort of practice being standard, is the case of the very famous Fujita Seiko. He claimed to have been taught Wada-Ha Koga Ryu Ninjutsu, by his grandfather, between 1902-1910, between the ages of 3 and 11 years old. he claimed to have inherited the system as 14th Soke, a fact which is accepted by the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. (pg 273) The very same Mr. Fujita also inherited Nanban Satto Ryu Kenpo after studying with Hashimoto Ippusai, between 1914-1919, which is also accepted by the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten (pg 662). Fujita was also a Judo and Kendo instructor for the Tokyo police, licensed in Shindo Muso Ryu Jojutsu, Daien Ryu Jojutsu, Shingetsu Ryu Shurikenjutsu, Asayama Ichiden Ryu Tajutsu, Tenshin Koryu Kenpo, and was a trustee of the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai.

for those not convinced by the above, please look at the cases of Ueno Takahashi, Nakajima Atsumi, and many others, which clearly lend the lie to this idea. In the specific case of Hatsumi, it should also be noted that men other than Takamatsu gave him similar rankings in many non BBT systems. Ueno Takahashi gave him Menkyo Kaiden in Asayama Ichiden, Bokuden, and Tenshin Koryu Kenpo. Yumio Nawa in Masaki Ryu Manrikikusari, while he also attained the following ranks in other arts: Shito Ryu 6th Dan, Judo 4th Dan, to mention just a few.
 
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