Question about Nak Bup

[Kumbajah]

I think nak bup is one of the most important and practical things we learn in Hapkido. You may never get into an altercation, but chances are you will fall down.

What I can get my head around is Nak Bup for distance and hight. Granted it looks cool and does bring a sense of accomplishment but... Any thoughts on the reasons behind practicing it?

Brian

 

[shesulsa]

What I can get my head around is Nak Bup for distance and hight. Granted it looks cool and does bring a sense of accomplishment but... Any thoughts on the reasons behind practicing it?

Sure. Height is easy - ladder, housetop roof, roof of car, camper, boat on a trailer, second story window, etc.

Distance, I can only think of being on or in something moving swifly and being knocked off somehow or being pushed or knocked by something or someone moving fast or with enough power to send you flying.

 

[Kumbajah]

Thanks shesula,

Looking at your answer I guess it is pretty self evident. I guess what was sticking with me is the way they are practiced, usually by jumping. So people are limited in their practice on how far they can jump and the momentum they can muster. So taking jump rolls as an example, if one person can jump over several people and another only a couple, is the first person more prepared to handle big falls or once you learn the mechanics of the roll are you able to handle something that exceeds your jumping ability.

I have seen dislocations and other injuries ( done it myself as well ) with people pushing their jumping abilities, so does adding more people to jump over increase your ability to handle falls exponentially or is just a case of pushing your limits.

Brian

 

[shesulsa]

Hmmm. Well, since progression is key to everything, it would make more sense to me to (in the case of diving rolls, for example) jump empty air space or soft, inanimate objects first to strive for distance until point of diminished returns is reached. There are most certainly other ways to measure distance and progression without injury. Then just repeated training, ki training and conditioning (I'm not a great jumper, btw) will lend more distance and ability over time and practice.

One also must expect that when one reaches one's limit that injuries will occur. I'd rather dislocate, sprain or break something rolling or falling farther than I've trained than rip an artery or organ open, or skid on my skull for 20 feet. I hope to say with training, one would be more able to take a fall than without, yes.

Let me make something perfectly clear - I don't like to fall. I did it a lot incorrectly as a kid. Come my BB test I was just as nervous about falling for my partners as about the rest of my test. My guys were very kind and didn't make me do any joint-lock throws, just all judo throws, and I can handle those better. I have my own little mental block about it (I think it has to do with injuring someone on a throw like that). But my interest in training for this is renewed lately, inspired by my daughter who did her first flip fall from a gooseneck jointlock the other night and did great!!! She was so nervous.

Whoops! off topic.

 

[glad2bhere]

I think Gawd has already answered your question. The height and distance are directly related to your stature and weight. Yes, I HAVE seen the acrobatics what with people jumping over a line of folks down on their hands and knees. And, if I ever slip and fall over a string of people down on their hands and knees I will immediately give thanks for His tender mercies. In the meantime the point of being able to take a fall relates to ones ability to stay 1 quarter-second and 1 quarter-inch ahead of their partner as they receive whatever technique the partner is executing. In most cases, given the spirit and technical ability of most practitioners it is enough to simply "sit-out" of the technique. As one goes on in training there are also breakfalls and air-rolls. Working with one person or a small group time and again does allow for one to get used to what techniques are coming simply because one gets to know their partners. Going to a larger gathering and working with strangers can be dicey since not only does one not know what that person might do, but there is no telling what impulse might cause them to execute the technique with ontoward force. My sense is this is a common motive behind many of the thinly-veiled threats one hears behind two antagonists who sooner or later "invite" one-another out on the mat. Since Hapkido has its roots in joint-breaks and disables it is not difficult thing to execute a technique in such a way as to injure your partner if that is the intent regardless of breakfall skills. On the other hand, if one wants to be an extraordinary partner, polishing falling skills allows an individual executing the technique to push performance of that technique to its highest limits without injuring the person TAKING the technique. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[shesulsa]

Yeah, and they look pretty in demos, too.

 

[Paul B]

Good points all around.

Just this little tidbit I pick up along the way concerning giving or receiving techniques...."Only attack as hard and as fast as you can fall."...."Know how well your partner can fall and adjust your throw accordingly...if you break your training partner you don't get to "play" with them anymore!"

It is hard to get a feel for someone right away at a seminar or training camp...these rules are a good way to keep tempers in check and the nasty surprises out of the picture.

 

[Kumbajah]

Good points its definitely good to go slow when getting to know someone and being kind to your partner. And it is a valuable skill to learn to become a good Uke (forgive the Japanese)

What I'm trying to address (poorly) is the acrobatic stuff. Jump rolls - I'd put my outer limit at 7 or 8 people on their hands and knees. I've seen more than 10. So I am not concerned about the how, I'm concerned with - what benefit the acrobatic falls serve. (other than looking cool for demos )

Brian

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

As far as I can tell the only benefit to the acrobatic maneuvers would be to give the person a challenge to over-train against. For instance, being able to do an air-roll over a series of people or chairs is a confidence builder, I'm sure. Like many such skills, its execution tends to diminish with age. The fundamental skill set is to be able to take a decent fall even later in life. There are any number of folks who, because of bad falling skills won't take falls later in life. There are also any number of folks I have met who have developed problems in their neck, back, and knees because of bad falling techniques and we are talking about people in their 40-s and 50-s. Now compare that to some Judo folks who are doing randori well into their 60-s! I think the key is to press on at the earliest possible point in ones' development, practice those breakfalls as regularly as possible and not to surrender too soon to the advancement of years. The acrobatic stuff--- well thats icing on the cake. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Paul B]

I am really unsure about the point in "falling for distance and height". I think being thrown and throwing yourself involve very different dynamics.

Fun to watch and do?Yes.Practical? eeehh...:idunno:

I am a huge proponent of Nauk Bup,don't get me wrong,I just tend to practice more for receiving technique. I think that is more important than how far or high I can jump and roll.Just my 2 c's.

 

[JungSoolKwan]

Dear Friends,


Nackbup is a very important part of Hapkido training.
Practicing nack bup in a proper way will prevent the student from getting hurt while receiving technique.
Understanding the dinamics of falling and proper breathing while falling, is also very important.
As far as acrobatic falling is and excellent way to build confidence and improve agility. It looks nice on demos, but reality is different.

Fabian Duque
Hapkidoin.

 

[glad2bhere]

OK, don't shoot me, now. I CAN make ONE arguement in favor of ---- call it "distance rolling".

I'm going to use "Outer Wrist Throw" for my example. As taught in the Yon Mu Kwan this technique would be used to throw the person away from the point of conflict, and maybe even into a confederate waiting his turn to enter the conflict. Now in an actual fight this "throw" would be used more as a "wrist break", and that would be that. However, if the person goes with the technique the idea is to move the attacker away from immediate proximity to the defender. In contrast, a technique that we call "Two Finger Takedown"--- and even one called "Oblique Two-finger Takedown" ----is intended to drop the person almost at the feet of the defender, despite the fact that it bears a strong resemblance to its O-W-T cousin. In order to help a partner fully realize the biomechanics necessary to perform these "wrist breaks" and identify their results, it WOULD help if the receiving partner could go with the technique and either represent leaving the defenders proximity or taking an immediate drop at the defenders' feet. I would stress that what I am talking about is the receiving partner being INDUCED or COMPELLED to perform these roles rather than simply performing a gymnastic in his own right. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Paul B]

Hi Bruce,

Are you refering to taking an "air roll"?

I do think that being able to take an air roll is extremely important in understanding the dynamics of a particular technique. When a person is able to take such a fall,technique delivery is usually "stepped up" to a degree that if one didn't perform such a manuever,something would break. It helps us practice in a realistic and safe manner,no?

The dynamics shift between practicing this way and static technique quite a bit.Suddenly the important aspects ,such as timing and placement enter a completely different realm then when one is is practicing from a basic grab with little movement on the recievers part other than sitting down or falling forward. I feel that it requires far more precision to be able to perform technique at this level.

Now I don't think that people should form the opinion that Hapkido practitioners instantaneously go flying at even the suggestion of a throw,rather it is seen as a tool in the art.

Of course I know that you already know this,but maybe someone out there just assumes we Hapkido-in can't stay on the ground for more than 5 minutes.

 

[glad2bhere]

Yes, Paul, an air-roll with just a bit more to it. I think the idea of jumping over five guys is very much excessive, but being able to, say, do a decent roll over a typical folding chair should be sufficient. In this way one is able to get sufficent height and distance to be able to stay the requisite time and distance ahead of his partner. Once again you are also correct that there needs to be some compunction under which the air-roll is done. Just jumping around because you know what technique is coming doesn't really help anyone actually polish their technique. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

Since I started this guess I'll pipe in. Air rolls or sky falls, as we call them I think you should be able to do. It its an integral part of doing Hapkido when you get to certain level. Certain techniques have to be practiced in this manner or you end up just walking through them. You don't have to know what's coming but you should be familiar with the techniques to be able to stay ahead. Similar to sparing, you don't know that your kick is going to be swept but when you feel it happen you better know how to fall. Read done a few times when you know its coming.

http://www.jinpalhapkidodc.com/images/movies/eric_brian.mov

Me, getting beat up about 5 years ago. Some ugly falls (4th tech esp) some ok. They've gotten better

This is the type of falls that other than demo and its fun. I don't see the intrinsic value in.
http://www.hapkidocanada.com/file/van/HapkidoVideo/jumping over ppl.WMV

Brian

 

[whalen]

"Its not the fall that hurts just the sudden stop" artyon:

Hal Whalen

 

[Kumbajah]

Too true -

Also - Why throw? Ground hits harder than you do.

 

[whalen]

Too true -

Also - Why throw? Ground hits harder than you do.

"good point" Have you ever done a flip fall with ski's Now thta is a demo if I ever saw one . I tried to fall over two skiers and took them with me. haha.......

Hal Whalen artyon:

 

[Kumbajah]

I keep picturing the skier in the opening of Wide World of Sports. "The Agony of Defeat" guy.

 

[shesulsa]

I keep picturing the skier in the opening of Wide World of Sports. "The Agony of Defeat" guy.

:rofl: Now that's one serious nok bop! :roflmao: