Powerful HAPKIDO people

[glad2bhere]

Dear Michael:

The reason I opened this string in this particular area is because of the very nature of Hapkido. Please allow me to elaborate.

a.) Unlike Taekwondo, the Hapkido arts are not a martial sport. Even in the most liberal definition a martial art, the Hapkido arts proceed from martial traditions and encapsulate martial science in a variety of forms-- both armed and unarmed. Almost without exception, Hapkido material has been historically intended for survival under desperate circumstances and routinely includes techniques intended to main, debilitate, incapacitate and even kill ones' opponent. The ability to do such things to another is a form of Power that we, as practitioners, help develop in ourselves and in our compatriots.

b.) Unlike many of the modern organizations, traditional Hapkido arts are commonly associated with a Kwan model of organization. This model can include a hierarchy of seniors and juniors, and commonly has a mentor. All of these positions are acknowledged in a tight network of deference, authority and care-giving. All of these positions entail Power of various degrees.

c.) The Hapkido arts continue to invoke the highest level of service by the individual to his community. This requires that person to be of high Character. I believe that the true measure of a persons' Character is how they conduct themselves when they have Power.

d.) There are no shortage of contributions about people who misuse or abuse Power, usually from positions of authority. Currently the Hapkido arts suffer from a number of such situations or fall-out from previous situations. What is lacking is a dialogue about the nature of Power itself by Hapkido practitioners as regards their art. I have no qualms about listening to feedback on this subject from practitioners of other arts, but if I had wanted that I would have put this string in a larger forum or under a more general heading. I am a Hapkido practitioner and teacher, whose art is suffering from misuses of Power and I am very interested to discuss the nature of Power in all its facets with other Hapkido practitioners. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Miles]

..... Unlike Taekwondo, the Hapkido arts are not a martial sport. ......... material has been historically intended for survival under desperate circumstances and routinely includes techniques intended to main, debilitate, incapacitate and even kill ones' opponent. The ability to do such things to another is a form of Power that we, as practitioners, help develop in ourselves and in our compatriots.
Bruce

Bruce,

Not trying to start a flame war, but TKD is a martial art which happens to have a sporting aspect (as does Hapkido.....I recall reading something about the Hapkido games in Korea).

Your comment about "techniques intended to main (sic), debiitate, incapacitate" made me recall an incident that occurred at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course. A technique in a green belt poomsae/form was being demonstrated and described by an 8th dan with English translation by a young Korean-American as "disable your opponent." An older Korean-American student corrected his junior's interpretation and said that the Grandmaster did not actually say "disable", he said "kill."

Take Care,

Miles

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Miles:

Thanks for your response. You comment is exactly why I did not post my string on a more open forum. Sometimes there are some things that never quite get discussed by the folks who need to talk about those things because the discussion slides sideways onto another more opinionated and emotional issue.

Its not that we couldn't let the discussion devolve into what constitutes "martial sport" vs "martial art." Yes, I AM aware that folks in the Hapkido community have been trying to make more money by selling a sanitized, competitive version of the art. Yes, I AM aware that some styles of TKD are marketed as more combative. And yes, I AM aware we can debate and discuss back and forth until the cows come home on these arcane points. However, if you really want to enter into the spirit of this string, you can start by discussing what it is that seduces 1st BB in TKD to go open their own schools and start their own organizations. On the other hand you can discuss why it is that not ALL 1st BB do this and what is it that keeps a person FROM doing it. The theme for the string is the role of Power as it impacts Hapkido practitioners but you are welcome to join in. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Miles]

Bruce, thank you for the invite.

You said:
<<b.) Unlike many of the modern organizations, traditional Hapkido arts are commonly associated with a Kwan model of organization. This model can include a hierarchy of seniors and juniors, and commonly has a mentor. All of these positions are acknowledged in a tight network of deference, authority and care-giving. All of these positions entail Power of various degrees.>>

I think this is an almost perfect explanation of why there are problems occurring in many Martial Arts organizations where the loyalty to instructor and/or kwan may actually prevent folks from coming together and sharing. I do not think this is limited to, but may include Hapkido.

You said
<<c.) The Hapkido arts continue to invoke the highest level of service by the individual to his community. This requires that person to be of high Character. I believe that the true measure of a persons' Character is how they conduct themselves when they have Power. >>

Yes, as I was taught, the martial arts are supposed to cultivate character and that means at some point there should be sacrifice and/or service to the community. I totally agree with your assessment of how character is measured: especially where one is not "blowing their own horn" so to speak when he/she is performing their service. At that point, it becomes more "self-service or promotion" than "community service."

You said
<<d.) There are no shortage of contributions about people who misuse or abuse Power, usually from positions of authority. Currently the Hapkido arts suffer from a number of such situations or fall-out from previous situations. What is lacking is a dialogue about the nature of Power itself by Hapkido practitioners as regards their art. I have no qualms about listening to feedback on this subject from practitioners of other arts, but if I had wanted that I would have put this string in a larger forum or under a more general heading. I am a Hapkido practitioner and teacher, whose art is suffering from misuses of Power and I am very interested to discuss the nature of Power in all its facets with other Hapkido practitioners. FWIW. >>

Perhaps I am not knowledgeable about the historical context in which you framed your preface. That may clue me into what you mean by your reference to "Power" in the second sentence quoted above. If you are referring to political power, and problems caused thereby, that too is not limited to Hapkido, but I acknowledge that it is within this sphere that your interest lies.

Take Care,

Miles

 

[FearlessFreep]

I know a lot of musicians. Some teach. Most of them teach because they like to; they like sharing what they know, they like the look of excitement on a students face when the student 'gets it', etc...Some do it for the money...some do it for the money that should not be doing it because they are not good teachers. (And some do it because they like it but their teaching skill is not as high as their enthusiasm for teaching

Anyway, the questions you ask are not limited to Hapkido or even MA

 

[Miles]

.....However, if you really want to enter into the spirit of this string, you can start by discussing what it is that seduces 1st BB in TKD to go open their own schools and start their own organizations. On the other hand you can discuss why it is that not ALL 1st BB do this and what is it that keeps a person FROM doing it. The theme for the string is the role of Power as it impacts Hapkido practitioners but you are welcome to join in. Thoughts? Bruce

My first thought is I wish I was more computer-savvy as it would help me with my parsing of your quotes.

What seduces 1st dans to open their own schools and start their own organizations-there may not be one single answer. Perhaps there is some belief that they have enough knowledge that they can provide a service to the community, or that they will be able to earn money, or stroke their own egos, or generate the respect of others?

What is interesting, is that I personally know of no 1st dan who started his/her own school or organization. Do you? If so, have you inquired as to their motivation(s)?

Shifting to the second question, i.e. what prevents another 1st dan from starting their own school or organization, I believe you likewise will receive numerous answers ranging from "I am loyal to my instructor" to "I am not qualified" to "I am too shy to get up in front of people."

Take Care,

Miles

 

[glad2bhere]

As you and Fearless are noting, the issues we are speaking to are certainly not limited to the Hapkido arts. The motive for looking at this comes from a few places though so let me give you some thoughts along that line.

1.) The Hapkido arts are constantly in a process of sub-dividing and renewing under new titles and organizations. This is particularly interesting because the actual art varies within a pretty tight range of techniques and concepts. One would expect that like people who discover that they are members of the same family, there would be more commonalities to build on than differences. It remains, however that the community continues to divide and reconstitute over and over again with the main differences being teaching models and accrual of revenues. Now, both teaching models and monies are sources of power as are things like authority, primacy, rank and standing. Being such strong motives you would think that people would want to talk about these------- and they DO BUT only in terms of the short-comings of others. For instance I might not talk about how I am owed exclusive deference, but I might complain loudly about the many people who DO NOT GIVE ME exclusive deference. Does that make sense? This leads me to point two.

2.) People in the Hapkido community tend to send mixed signals about the role of power in their practice and their organizations. For instance, everybody in the community knows that rank can be bought and sold. Everybody in the community agrees that this is not a good thing. And everybody I talk to in the community agrees that they do not support, nor do they themselves buy rank or standing. YET--- the practice continues. Now if nobody is doing it and nobody supports it--- why is the practice continuing? For the purposes of this discussion I take that example and convert it to the point we are discussing here. If we are training in an art that developes Character, and people who have been in the art for a long time espouse development of Character, how is it that we have people in the Hapkido community who conduct themselves poorly or produce students of poor Character? If Character can be measured by how a person handles Power (IE authority as a teacher; authority as an organizational head; manager etc) and we have more than a few people who do not handle that Power well, where is the system breaking down? You asked if I had inquired of people who mishandled Power as to their motives. If a person is mishandling his responsibilities in the first place, is he going to be willing to discuss this irresponsibility in a candid fashion? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Paul B]

If a person is mishandling his responsibilities in the first place, is he going to be willing to discuss this irresponsibility in a candid fashion? Thoughts?

Hi Bruce,

Ok it was a big snip...but I just want to focus on that point. I would like to think that a person would,but if they are arrogant or irresponsible in the first place to act in such a manner,what would compel them to make such amends? Hurt feel-bads? As they say..."The road to hell is paved....."

It is apparent by their actions that they have no qualms about being held responsible for any acts they commit. One more question...who would discuss their shortcomings with them? An equal? Someone in a lower rank? We all know the type who won't even look at you if you're not at least 5th Dahn,so who would be the judge of someone like that?

 

[Kumbajah]

...For instance, everybody in the community knows that rank can be bought and sold.

... If we are training in an art that developes Character, and people who have been in the art for a long time espouse development of Character, how is it that we have people in the Hapkido community who conduct themselves poorly or produce students of poor Character?

... where is the system breaking down?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

They are never training in the Art to begin with. They buy their way in and keep buying their way up. Some we have seen start their own Hapkido systems. Some start in another KMA buy their way in and jump around until they have to go overseas to find someone to recognize their rank after they have exhausted their options here in the US.

These actions aren't tolerated they just can't be stopped. The only place that these issues come out publicly is on these boards. For the sake of civility such accusations are not tolerated. We can meet on the street or correspond by email and say "master" x is a real tool and doesn’t know hapkido from a hole in the ground. It doesn't mean he can't fool the uninitiated , buy rank, start a school and build a following or became a mod on one of the various MA boards and become seemingly legitimate that way. It can look like a duck, sound like a duck, walk like a duck, and we can even call it a duck. But the duck is still there.

Short of reverting back to challenges to the death I think we're stuck.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Short of reverting back to challenges to the death I think we're stuck

It's a start...

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Paul and Brian:

I agree with everything that you both have said, but now I want to take it a step deeper. Stay with me on this, 'kay?

If --- we all know that people are doing such things as we have mentioned, and

If--- we know people identify these things as "bad"--- "bad" for the art; "bad" for individual values; "bad" for the community,

THEN-- where are we falling down in our training (or our teaching, or our administrating) that such conditions continue?

For example, I think I am safe in saying that just about every KMA school or organization has some form of the traditional O-GAE ("Five Tenents") usually ascribed to the Hwa Rang Warriors of old. There are some pretty modern takes on these guidelines but they are still there. Even though #2 speaks to "Fealty to ones' Parents" I have seen some KMA students who, once they are off the mat are sorely in need of a serious "attitude adjustment" the way they speak to their parents. Or how about #5 ("Im"---- "Benevolence to All")? I've seen instructors who will do un-godly things to there students to make a point or make themselves look good, or to finance some project they have in mind. Where have we failed with these folks? Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

This is an old story. It is not as simple as where are we falling down in our training. If someone is willing to buy it someone will sell it. As long as humankind has a hierarchy you could back door your way in either buying your way in, nepotism or assassination. Political, religious, and business positions have always be subject to this corruption. Some positions have been based on it - the other Golden rule - " He who has the Gold rules ". Even though the corruption exists the institutions survive. Why because there is a need for the institutions. Individuals may fall and fail because their skill or aptitude is not up to their position but the institution prevails.

There are other pitfalls such as the cult of personality. Master x has been in x magazine, is on x board, started his own system etc so he must be good. In our capitalistic society these things can be bought. All masters are just men and subject to the personality flaws that all men are subject to. Just because x can perform x skill doesn't mean x is a good person or martial artist, the converse as well is true.

So where does that leave us? Is fighting corruption like trying to drink the ocean? IMHO - no. You put forth the tenets try to instill them in your students. Embody the virtues yourself. Encourage them to seek out other practitioners that you think embody the virtues an skills that you admire - I, you or Master x is not the only source. You can see people of high skill or great teachers and the few individuals that have both. Warn them of the pitfalls that we are subject to. Knowledge is the key. In martial arts we seek to increase knowledge. Knowledge of fighting skills, knowledge of our self and our limitations and strengths, knowledge of others and their value and the fleetingness and power of life.

It is not a easy thing we pursue.

In-nae,

Brian

 

[Kumbajah]

I think I see where you going now. Martial arts, as well as the priesthood sanctuary to a certain sector of the population with marginal personalities. People that don't fit. With in the hierarchy and mystical undertones there is a promise of safety initially. There is a set protocol of behavior, set hierarchy, room for advancement and an alternative and insular to the "real world". The attitude imo is "I am different, here I'm expected to be different from the rest of the population" They learn the protocol an position and receive a form of legitimacy from their new role. In these new roles they are usually "set free" to practice their new skill set. Now just because they have ability to follow directions doesn't mean they have purged their personality defects. Supposedly there are methods to help purging these built into the system. They don't necessarily work. They were based on older models of understanding of the human psyche. The models work in a "normal" psyche - ie help build indomitable spirit but don't take into account the truly twisted. Perhaps if safety nets were in place there would be no pedophile priests.

There is a question of maturity in the case of shady characters. Some come to the martial arts to play dress up. Hey look at me I'm a karottie man. They played perhaps cowboy and indians or soldier growing up and now its Deadly Martial Arts expert. They never got over the need for "being cool" Wear the right costume, jump around learn some foreign words - who's going to know the difference. They reach some degree of success and it becomes addicting. In order to feed this addiction some shady practices are adapted to support it.

So how to keep them out? In the case of MA instructors - A certification board. Not judged on what you teach (everyone seems to balk at that) but things like CPR, basic first aid, basic teaching methods and perhaps initial and periodic physiological profiles. But I don't know without legislating this how you could actually implement it.

Brian "I know Judo Karate and someother Japanese words" Beach

 

[glad2bhere]

Thanks, Brian. You are definitely playing in the ballpark I wanted to build.

The idea of being able to keep tabs on ourselves as a community is something that has kept me going for sometime. The idea of certification does not seem to work since, as you say, most people balk at being "told what to do" especially by someone not of the community (like a bureaucrat).

For myself, I relied on the administrators of whatever organization I belonged to until it became apparent that the organization was corrupt because the administrator had corrupted it. What do you do when the "policement" don't obey the rules, ne?

There are always the natural consequences of ones' behavior but that takes time to come around and who knows how much damage is done before the offender finally grinds to a stop.

Now I HAD been chewing over the awful stuff that went down a couple of years ago, and that seemed to come out pretty well for the community---- but that was AFTER the fact. I keep wondering if there would have been something that could have been done BEFORE things got so bad. Seems like we will be getting over that black eye for some time to come. Certainly MONEY figures in prominently. There is also the ease with which Mr. Joe Average can open a school without having to abide by any real criteria. See, but now we are getting into the business end of it. I know commerce is a contributing factor but its not the whole answer any more than taking TV Evangelism off the airways will make people better Christians. There is something about the matter of "cutting corners" that seems to become a slippery slope in these matters, but how to address that keeps me coming up empty. Any thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

The only thing I can say is tend to your own garden. I think that you and I are coming from different places. I believe that ALL institutions of man are flawed. Where it seems that you think that MAs should somehow be above it. Like attracts like, if people want that they will go towards it. If they are looking for the easy way out they will find a way. You can shout from the mountain top moral objections, people are only cheating themselves, caveat emptor but most people only learn by making their own mistakes.

I don't mean to sound cynical, I'm not. I think you should strive for the ideal but I try not to waste time getting bent out of shape when I or others fall short. We all do - a lot. When all that stuff went down in Hapkido - all denounced person x- eventually. Some moved on and were stronger for it. Some bounced around trying to find the next guy that would give them an easy way. I think that they deserve pity rather than scorn.

Brian

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

I think I know what you mean, but now lets take the longer view. Certainly we are in control of our own development, but what about the consequences to the activities in which we engage. In our case I am speaking of the KMA. We are of an age where the torch is being passed to us and some part of where these traditions go is in out hands. As I write this I am thinking of the recent damage by the Olympic situation and the TKD debacle. Of course, these are on the larger stage of Life. In counterpoint we have the smaller situations like the various abuses of Power in these discussions. True, I am not sure what direction to take, but the stakes seem a bit high to lay back and leave it all in the hands of Fate. Whatcha think?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

Sheesh - I thought I was taking the long view. My point is you can only take care of what you can. Our personal development yes, but also that is or will be left to our charge. Don't be an avenue for self delusion the wondering souls. Once they find they have to work they will step up or go away. The art is above any org that might exist. You just protect your corner of it and try to inspire the next crop. Be a place that people who want to learn and work can go. Kind of "think globally - act locally" scenario.

Everybody knows where the McDojangs in their town are. When you meet someone that studies there "Oh you study there. Thats nice. Glad you enjoy it " as you smile and nod. Maybe they'll clue in maybe they won't. If they do you'll be there.

Brian

 

[glad2bhere]

Oh-Oh. This is getting scarey, Brian. I think I see a light at the end of the tunnel.

Of course, that still leaves us with the quandry about what to do when confronted with deviant behavior. By that I mean behavior which is in conflict with the values espoused by the same system. For instance, if an art indicates that it is guided by the O-GAE, what is our responsibility when presented with someone who deviates from that guideline? Certainly one can step in and clarify the situation, but that assumes that the person WANTS to be guided, right? There are always those who willfully enjoy deviating from a code for no other reason than they can. Then, too, we can simply back off and let the cards fall as they may, which could also smack of abandonment or even abdication of responsibility. No one here is expected to save the world, of course, but what of those who intentionally neglect their duties or abuse their responsibility? Once again I see some dicey ground here. Seeing a child struck in a Supermarket by its parent would cause me to act. What about a senior who is needlessly abusive to lower students? Better yet, what about a person, senior to ME, who is abusive to students? For another example, if a person buys a University degree from a market, well thats on him. But am I duty-bound to comment if I watch a senior rank do the same thing? Speaking in the abstract is one thing, but are we mandated to convert beliefs into action? I say "yes" but I suspect that when it comes to acting, I am something of a minority. The bureaucratic phrase, "he's a boy-scout" or "he's a loose cannon" come to mind. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

Dear Bruce,

Nothing wrong with taking action - Taking care of your own is action. You have to start somewhere. If your own house is not in order how can you help someone else get theirs in order? You can correct someone but in the context of O-Gae you have to do it from a position of respect. If it is a junior, show patience they are still learning. If it a senior, don't correct them in front of others, we all loose our way occasionally. Take a private moment to suggest diplomatically that maybe a better course of action could be taken. A gentle reminder if you will. I think the "loose cannon" and "boy-scout" monikers is earned in how one reacts. No one wants someone there that is constantly a reminder of their faults. Most of us are aware of them. Sometimes our actions are compensation for them. Sometimes a constant reminder is the catalyst to act out the wrong behavior just to get the reaction. "HeHe - "know it all" see how the vein sticks out in his forehead when he gets pissed." Sometimes just a look is enough correction. You don't have to swing the hammer at every infraction. Trying to be an example is best course of action. Basically IMO what it boils down to is patience with ourselves and others. We are learning here with brief time of the earth. Nobody's perfect. If you think someone needs a helping hand try kindness first. You always have the hammer.

Brian "I can kick my own *** better than anyone else" Beach

 

[Miles]

The only thing I can say is tend to your own garden. I think that you and I are coming from different places. I believe that ALL institutions of man are flawed. Where it seems that you think that MAs should somehow be above it. Like attracts like, if people want that they will go towards it. .......


I don't mean to sound cynical, I'm not. I think you should strive for the ideal but I try not to waste time getting bent out of shape when I or others fall short. ....
Brian

FWIW, I agree with Brian. We pray that all men and women would aspire to always act benevolently and in the best interest of their art and students. However, humankind is not perfect so even those who practice martial arts are not perfect (just striving for perfection, a goal which will always be out of our grasp). In the end, the only person any of us can control is ourself.

Miles