Quality or Quantity of Life ~ The Right to make your own decisions

[Lisa]

Which is more important to you? Quality or Quantity? Do you have a living will that your family is aware of and will abide by? When will it be enough for you?

To me, quality is of the upmost importance, as, I am sure, it is to everyone. But how about your family? Are they going to abide by your wishes, are they bound legally to do so? And how do you feel about saying "enough is enough" and I don't want to live if I don't have quality in my life?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Lisa it is all about quality to me. Quantity is not as important. My family knows my wishes and yes I have it on record as well as my wife's wishes too. Quality of life is what makes life enjoyable.

 

[Lisa]

Lisa it is all about quality to me. Quantity is not as important. My family knows my wishes and yes I have it on record as well as my wife's wishes too. Quality of life is what makes life enjoyable.

Is there a law in your state that will enforce it? Something to back up your wishes?

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I have to go with quality. Both my wife and I have living wills. Living in a vegetative state for years would just add stress to mine or hers life that really isn't necessary.

If your brain is dead, why keep the meat alive?

Jeff

 

[Lisa]

I have to go with quality. Both my wife and I have living wills. Living in a vegetative state for years would just add stress to mine or hers life that really isn't necessary.

If your brain is dead, why keep the meat alive?

Jeff

I am not talking only a vegatative state here.

If you were injured or didn't recover from a major surgery and your body was failing. The doctors could "save you" but it would mean your life would be altered significantly, would you go ahead with the treatment or would you say "no, I don't want to live like this" and refuse treatment and would your family be okay with this?

Do ya wanna live your life in a wheelchair, dependant on others?

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I am not talking only a vegatative state here.

If you were injured or didn't recover from a major surgery and your body was failing. The doctors could "save you" but it would mean your life would be altered significantly, would you go ahead with the treatment or would you say "no, I don't want to live like this" and refuse treatment and would your family be okay with this?

Do ya wanna live your life in a wheelchair, dependant on others?

Oh hell no!

For a while it looked like with my hip and pelvis problems, I might have ended up that way in a few years. I was starting to really put serious thought into whether or not to stay around when and if that ended up being the case. Never came up with an answer. But if I ended up being totally dependent on the care of others, for me the answer is simple.

Jeff

 

[Lisa]

Oh hell no!

For a while it looked like with my hip and pelvis problems, I might have ended up that way in a few years. I was starting to really put serious thought into whether or not to stay around when and if that ended up being the case. Never came up with an answer. But if I ended up being totally dependent on the care of others, for me the answer is simple.

Jeff

And there lies the key. Many people live in wheelchairs and live full productive wonderful lives. However, I have also seen people who were vibrant living being be reduced to a shell of what they once were and forced to live out the rest of their lives in a preverbial hell. Not being able to feed or dress themselves. All due to a somewhat "heroic" effort on the part of medicine to "save their lives"

When your body is failing and tube feeding, dialysis and wheelchair are in your future and you won't be living the life you wanted or hoped for in your old age. Is it something we should strive to "save"?

 

[mrhnau]

Lisa it is all about quality to me. Quantity is not as important. My family knows my wishes and yes I have it on record as well as my wife's wishes too. Quality of life is what makes life enjoyable.

That sounds good... but there must be a reasonable standard... would you rather live one absolutely perfect day and die the next, or live reasonably happy days for 30 years and die nice and old? One needs balance... I want quality, but I also realize quantity is somewhat important. Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing my children grow up, get married, and have children of their own one day... its quality that requires quantity!

personally, I don't want to be laying in a near vegetative state for 20 years just to say I made it to 100. I know thats what you had in mind, but I guess I wanted to clarify a little bit

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Is there a law in your state that will enforce it? Something to back up your wishes?

Lisa a living will in Michigan is not legal. So we each have wills with advanced directives. (which are legal)

 

[Lisa]

Lisa a living will in Michigan is not legal. So we each have wills with advanced directives. (which are legal)

Thanks for clarifying, Brian.

We too have wills with advanced directives.

Tell me something, say you refused a treatment because you didn't think your quality of life would be much of anything once the treatment was implemented. Your body was failing you in more then one aspect. Would your loved ones respect and adhere to your wishes once you slipped into a comatose state?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

That sounds good... but there must be a reasonable standard... would you rather live one absolutely perfect day and die the next, or live reasonably happy days for 30 years and die nice and old? One needs balance... I want quality, but I also realize quantity is somewhat important. Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing my children grow up, get married, and have children of their own one day... its quality that requires quantity!

personally, I don't want to be laying in a near vegetative state for 20 years just to say I made it to 100. I know thats what you had in mind, but I guess I wanted to clarify a little bit

Yes we are talking a fine line and if how I read Lisa's post she is curious to know if people have thought ahead. Being surrounded by doctor's I can say we have thought ahead and yet when it comes to those tough choices and they are tough what will you do? To me I want to live with quality. I absolutely want to see my grand children someday (when I have some) but not if Grandpa (that's me) cannot take care of himself and spoil them rotten.

 

[Lisa]

Yes we are talking a fine line and if how I read Lisa's post she is curious to know if people have thought ahead.

That is part of what I am asking, yes. That and will your family respect your decisions and abide by your wishes or, when it comes down to it, will fear of losing you, keep you around?

Being surrounded by doctor's I can say we have thought ahead and yet when it comes to those tough choices and they are tough what will you do?

Exactly. Are we realy comfortable with literally pulling our own plug? Are we comfortable enough with ourselves and our beliefs and do we really know when we have had enough?

To me I want to live with quality. I absolutely want to see my grand children someday (when I have some) but not if Grandpa (that's me) cannot take care of himself and spoil them rotten.

I feel as you do, Brian. And on another note about that, I wouldn't want my grandchildren watching me waste away.

 

[Ping898]

Quality of life to me is more important than quanitity. That said, I don't believe in doctor-assisted suicide. What quality over quantity means to me is that if at 75 you are diagnosed with breast cancer, nothing says that you have to go through all the treatments of it to extend you life a few years if you don't want to. But I also recognize that quality can be a changing concept. What counts as a quality day today to you or me, may change because of a life altering event. I think of Christopher Reeves, his life changed drastically after his accident and his expectations of life changed, but I have to imagine that as a father especially he wanted to be around for as long as possible for his son even if the quality of his life in 2000 wasn't what is was in 1980.

I don't have a living will mostly because I feel I am too young for one (the folly of youth I know) though I do have a medical power of attourny set up. But also if something were to happen to me today it would be my parents and sister who would be responsible, so there would be no fighting between people like what happened in Florida and all of them know my wishes. If I was to get married I would probably do up a living will or whatever legal document that would be needed to ensure my wishes were upheld.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Thanks for clarifying, Brian.

We too have wills with advanced directives.

Tell me something, say you refused a treatment because you didn't think your quality of life would be much of anything once the treatment was implemented. Your body was failing you in more then one aspect. Would your loved ones respect and adhere to your wishes once you slipped into a comatose state?

Most of my loved ones (that are adults) are physicians or ex medical and they all know how traumatic it can be to keep someone around who is comatose, etc. So I feel pretty confident that they would respect my wishes. The kid's on the other hand? Well they are just 7 and 10 respectively so regarding them I do not know.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i take the other side of this coin. maybe it's arrogant or optimistic of me, but i know in my water that i'll come out, come back. coma/vegetative state/colostomy bag/whatever. as our southerly natives' governator once said 'ah'll be bahck'.

so my wife knows to keep on keeping on as long as i can breathe on my own, right up to the point where it begins to seriously affect my family's ability to continue (don't want my quixotic notions eating up my kids' college money).

should also point out that my wife disagrees. she wants none of that. my brother and sister in law, too. come to think of it, i'm pretty sure i'm the only member of my family with this stance.

perhaps that makes me selfish.

 

[Lisa]

i take the other side of this coin. maybe it's arrogant or optimistic of me, but i know in my water that i'll come out, come back. coma/vegetative state/colostomy bag/whatever. as our southerly natives' governator once said 'ah'll be bahck'.

so my wife knows to keep on keeping on as long as i can breathe on my own, right up to the point where it begins to seriously affect my family's ability to continue (don't want my quixotic notions eating up my kids' college money).

should also point out that my wife disagrees. she wants none of that. my brother and sister in law, too. come to think of it, i'm pretty sure i'm the only member of my family with this stance.

perhaps that makes me selfish.

ahh... the bolded part is interesting. I guess, in a way, it doesn't keep you on the flip side, because you too, have a limit. You have just expressed a different reasoning then others have.

And you bring up a good point that I hadn't thought of. Me being Canadian and not worrying about the cost of my health care in the same way that you on the other side of the boarder do. Money truly is a realistic consideration to make.

 

[mrhnau]

i take the other side of this coin. maybe it's arrogant or optimistic of me, but i know in my water that i'll come out, come back. coma/vegetative state/colostomy bag/whatever. as our southerly natives' governator once said 'ah'll be bahck'.

My grandmother was in a state similar to this situation. she always begged to be kept on machines forever, they will find some way to bring her back. Well, she sugared herself into a coma (diabetes). She was comatose for months. Eventually her bodies systems started shutting down, one by one. Doctors could have kept her alive for months if we wanted, but the final conclusion was going to be the same. That was the hardest decision my dad had to make, and one of the few times I ever saw him cry. He decided to stop the medication and, as he put it, "let nature take its course". "ah'll be bahck" is not always the case...

so my wife knows to keep on keeping on as long as i can breathe on my own, right up to the point where it begins to seriously affect my family's ability to continue (don't want my quixotic notions eating up my kids' college money).

Breathing is not always the indication of death. Often breathing can be recovered. Also, the ability to breath does not always indicate you are safe. I'd also hate to have the decision for my life be dependant on the almight dollar, but if its absolutely terminal and a matter of ruining my childrens future, than I'm probably going to agree w/ you on that one.

should also point out that my wife disagrees. she wants none of that. my brother and sister in law, too. come to think of it, i'm pretty sure i'm the only member of my family with this stance.

perhaps that makes me selfish.

Alot of people are that way... for some people, its hard to let go of life. I'm not eager to dispense of my life, but I know where I'm going and have peace with that.

on the topic of living wills, I need to get one worked up...

 

[mrhnau]

How about another question... how much suffering is too much? What about situations in which a situation is not terminal or coma inducing, but causes copious amounts of intolerable pain?

 

[Lisa]

How about another question... how much suffering is too much? What about situations in which a situation is not terminal or coma inducing, but causes copious amounts of intolerable pain?

Good question. Pain reduced quality of life. However, what kind of pain is intolerable but not terminal? And in speaking of pain, are we limiting it to physical pain or emotional as well. Should someone be kept alive who is depressed and unhappy with their current situation and a shell of the person they once were?

Interesting responses thus far and bring up a multitude of what if's and how about's. I am also curious as no one has brought up the "moral" issue.

 

[MA-Caver]

When I was living in Dallas (some 25 years ago) I temporarily stayed with an elderly couple. Very elderly. The wife was a sweet woman who cared for her husband very much. Her husband was permanently bedridden in a hospital bed that was set up in their living-room... it was a small two bedroom house and thus no room for her bed and the hospital bed.
The old man had to be fed very soft foods, changed and bathed and while he was alert to everything around him he was so emancipated that he really couldn't do anything. He wasn't hooked up to any life support systems but he was on IV feeding. His body was spotted with bed-sores scabbed over and he couldn't move on his own, anyone moving him put him in great pain. Their medical bills were astronomical as the doctor had to come see him instead of the couple going to the doc's. I can't even imagine to this day what their prescription bill was like. I could tell that the old man was just laying there waiting and helplessly hoping to die and move on. He eventually did, quietly in his sleep, with no help from anyone. His wife moved in with their oldest daughter and I would imagine by now she has joined him.

I recall thinking... someone put a bullet in my head should I ever get to that state. Now I'll just be satisfied with a nice soft pillow over my face.

My own father is 80 years old and is still capable of getting around on his own, with a little visual guidance (he's deaf and blind). His quality of life is a lot less now becuase of his recent blindness but he still uses his mind and tactile senses to function on his own. Right now he's replacing a toliet seat without my help, in fact he shoo-ed me away from helping... sigh. Ok then, that's fine. If I reach 80 years of age I want to be like that (without the blindess of course ), be able to still get around on my own two legs/power and still carry on a conversation and still think and do for myself.
If I can't do that... then what's the point?
It is sad that a formerly active person's body deteriorates to the point of emancipation and helplessness due to disease or accident or whatever. All we (healthy) people can do is to care for them best as we can til they pass on. If they're in chronic pain and no meds can help... it's a sticky situation right there. I'd say that I would want to have someone to help put me out of my misery, but if it were to happen to my own father... would I want to ...? Part of me says definitely not but another part of me would hate to see him suffer.
My brothers are of like mind. Fortunately it's not to that point yet.