America Unsustainable...

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...what you're describing is consumerism. It is characteristic of advanced capitalist economies, which must try to endlessly grow by a) creating new markers, b) creating new desires.

In other words, the problem we're having is that crazy consumption is integral to our whole economic structure.

 

[Makalakumu]

How about starting with insulating your home and buying energy efficient appliances for a start...little more realistic in the short run.

God, I feel dumb, I didn't even think of that.

 

[Makalakumu]

Kind of hard to live in a city and farm.....

Maybe not on the scale that one thinks of a farm nowadays, but, supplementation is surely possible. You'd be surprised what you can grow at a high yield in a limited amount of space...

 

[kid]

1. Buy a smaller house? Sure
2. Share a home with another family? As long as i get to pic them
3. Plant a garden to supplement your diet? I would like that
4. Drive one small car? Yeah
5. Move out of the suburbs and back into the city? That would be fun.
6. Live less then a mile from work? Not sure about that
7. Walk, ride, or ski to do errands? This would make it more interesting
8. Would you change careers? Possibly
9. Would you use more public transit? sure
10. Would you reuse anything that could be reused? yup
11. Join an organic commune? yeah
12. Start a farmer's coop? yes
13. Vacation closer to home? yes and no i want to see alot more than minnesota.
14. Communally share tools...like a snowblower for multiple families? Sure
15. Communally share vehicles...like a truck for multiple families? As long as i get to drive.
16. Better insulation for your house. yes
17. NRG efficient appliances. yes




kid

 

[Ray]

Those sound like great ideas. It had been my plan to breed my offspring to be smaller than me so that they could comfortably using less resources---I don't know what it is about these youngsters but they 4 out of 5 grew to be over 6 ft tall.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I think a lot of it varies.

I mean, I live in Albuquerque, New Mexico, which gets hot in the summer sometimes, but we use a swamp cooler and open windows, which probably uses less resources than a typical A/C. Winter heating is probably lower energy usage than many places as it doesn't get *that* cold.

Less..we have six kids, which sorta puts a minimal size on housing and transportation, and we are pretty much at that point. I work from my house and we homeschool so our transporation usage is probably lower than most.

However, we are very close to a grocery store and I drive often for those "pick up a few items" that I could easily do on a bike.
---

As far as economic impact, one that that occurs to me is that there is a difference between economy and energy. I mean, if I get my house of the grid and go solar...well, someone has to build the solar panals and sell them and maintain them and...someone still has a chance to make a lot of money based on my buying habits. All they've done is change *what* I buy or spend money on; a dishwasher or an energy efficient dishwasher.

 

[dubljay]

There will ALWAYS be people "taking more than what they need".....no matter the political structure. Call me a cynic, but I believe history has shown what "human nature" really is over and over again.

Haha some one should have explained that to Karl Marx when he wrote the Communist Manifesto.

To answer your question Upnorth...

I feel you are right about current American lifestyle being unsustainable. This is not to say that we cannot adapt and change. There are signs that things are beginning to change. To be blunt about it, but I feel that most Americans (including many within my own family) are too self centered and ignorant to realize the complexity and difficulty of our lifestyles. The average American does not pay attention to the government until it is time to vote. What they miss are lobbying opportunities that can bring about reform. This is not to say that every American is like this, as I know many are not. I receive weekly emails from ASES (American Solar Energy Society) that discuss not only technological advances in alternative energies, but urge people to write senators, sign petitions that will bring about reforms in energy legislature. However many Americans are ignorant to the legislature because they figure if there is immediately wrong then there is no problem. Further, more many people I have spoken to on this subject feel that they do not have to act as there are people already doing something about it. Simply said there are not enough people acting, it is going to take action on everyone's part. As I said though, there are signs of change. There is a new university being built in Merced, California that will be offering the first degrees in Alternative Energies. As it stands, I think the only other college to offer something remotely close to this is MIT. There are similar colleges under construction and in planning in Florida as well. These college programs are the first step in bringing about changes. Until it becomes more cost effective to use alternative energies in place of fossil fuels, the American public will resist change tooth and nail. This has been my experience with people... as I said this does not mean that all Americans are like this, but from what I have seen... they are.

We can adapt and change our ways, but it is not going to happen over night. It will take more work than many think. There will be some that will resist the change despite the clear necessity and advantages. One major problem is that the younger (college age) demographic does not vote. The babyboomer generation is still the main voting demographic, and look at the lifestyle they grew up in. Major change is not going to happen until the current generation gets off their collective, lazy, self centered butts and does something about it. (This is not to say that the babyboomers don't care, or not capable of change, but their way of life has been engrained into them).

Just my opinion and I could be wrong.

-Josh

 

[Cryozombie]

I gave up using a snowblower. I use an old-fashioned shovel. I also use an electric lawn mower, to conserve fuel.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I gave up using a snowblower. I use an old-fashioned shovel. I also use an electric lawn mower, to conserve fuel.

This has me curious about what the total impact is. I mean, if you use less 'gas' in a electric mower, but the oil is still burnt generating the electricity? Do some of these all even out regardless of how you do it?

 

[dubljay]

In a sense it is more efficient with an electric mower as electic engines are more efficient than gas.

 

[Tgace]

Eh..I didnt use much more than 1 gallon of gas in my snowblower all winter.

 

[digitalronin]

1. Buy a smaller house?
No I lived in a smaller house, prefer the mobility a larger home provides.

2. Share a home with another family? NO


3. Plant a garden to supplement your diet? Do that already, thats the advantage of having a larger home and yard.


4. Drive one small car? My main car is a small car, less on gas and easier to park.


5. Move out of the suburbs and back into the city? Hell no, I'm a minority, the city to us is like volunteering to live in downtown beruit.

6. Live less then a mile from work?
No prob.

7. Walk, ride, or ski to do errands? It hasnt snowed here in decades. If the job was a few blocks away i would walk. Erands yes, if don't have lug back heavy bags.


8. Would you change careers? if it paid more.


9. Would you use more public transit? No way, don't like sitting next to sweaty ppl on buses.

10. Would you reuse anything that could be reused? Do that already.

11. Join an organic commune? What i grow is for me and my blood, everyone else can fend for themselves.

12. Start a farmer's coop? If it would raise a suffecient profit .

13. Vacation closer to home? How boring.

14. Communally share tools...like a snowblower for multiple families?
no, all the tools would get stolen eventually.

15. Communally share vehicles...like a truck for multiple families?
yes, if i don't have to pay for the vehicle

 

[RandomPhantom700]

1. Yeah, a small house would work fine for me.

2. Depends on how trusting I am of the other family, but if I know and trust them well enough, and the living arrangements would suit it, yeah.

3. No, way too much time and effort, considering that I don't eat too many salads anyway.

4. I've got limits on how small a vehicle I can use, so the answer to this would probably be no.

5. Maybe.

6. If there was suitable housing, sure.

7. If I could.

8. How would my choice in careers, theoretically, help reduce energy use?

9. Yes, again assuming that it's practical.

10. Yeah (*thinks about how many pickle jars have become sugar and flour containers*)

11. A what?

12. I'll leave that to the farmers.

13. The few times I actually vacation makes this a no.

14. Sure.

15. Probably not, but I'd be more than willing to carpool as an alternative.

 

[sgtmac_46]

This thread has convinced me that the American Way of Life is unsustainable. I am curious as to what people on Martial Talk would be willing to give up in there lives in order to better live in a future of constrained resource and energy supply.

For example, would you...

1. Buy a smaller house?

Mine is small enough.

2. Share a home with another family?

Not a chance.

3. Plant a garden to supplement your diet?

Why not.

4. Drive one small car?

Drive a more fuel efficient car, not a smaller one (i'm 6'5 for god sakes).

5. Move out of the suburbs and back into the city?

I wouldn't touch the city with a ten meter cattle prod. I hate the suburbs too. It's all the city dwellers and suburbanites that are using all the resources. Those of us from the country have always understood conservation.

6. Live less then a mile from work?

Not likely.

7. Walk, ride, or ski to do errands?

Walking and bicycle riding isn't bad.

8. Would you change careers?

Nope.

9. Would you use more public transit?

We don't have public transit where I live.

10. Would you reuse anything that could be reused?

Sure, saves me money.

11. Join an organic commune?

I love that term "commune". Nope.

12. Start a farmer's coop?

Nope.

13. Vacation closer to home?

Vacation, what's that?

14. Communally share tools...like a snowblower for multiple families?

Yeah, right.

15. Communally share vehicles...like a truck for multiple families?

Not no, but hell no.

16. Etc...

I think I could do everything on this list. What would you add or subtract? Why?

The goal here is to cut your energy usage and your waste by 50% to 75%. What would you be willing sacrifice in order to accomplish this goal? What sacrifices couldn't you make? Do you think that you would have the same "quality" of life when you have accomplished this goal?

17. Limit child bearing to one child per couple, two at most.
How about we cut the population by actually encouraging smaller families in not only our nation, but in the third world. It's population growth that is unmaintainable.

 

[Makalakumu]

Eh..I didnt use much more than 1 gallon of gas in my snowblower all winter.

I use more then a few grams of body fat with my snow shovel each winter...

btw - this thread has been pretty great so far!

 

[Tgace]

I use more then a few grams of body fat with my snow shovel each winter...

btw - this thread has been pretty great so far!

The last thing I want to do when I come home from working all night is shovel for 45 min to an hour....It would be like working out then trying to go to bed.

 

[Franc0]

This thread has convinced me that the American Way of Life is unsustainable. I am curious as to what people on Martial Talk would be willing to give up in there lives in order to better live in a future of constrained resource and energy supply.

For example, would you...

1. Buy a smaller house?
2. Share a home with another family?
3. Plant a garden to supplement your diet?
4. Drive one small car?
5. Move out of the suburbs and back into the city?
6. Live less then a mile from work?
7. Walk, ride, or ski to do errands?
8. Would you change careers?
9. Would you use more public transit?
10. Would you reuse anything that could be reused?
11. Join an organic commune?
12. Start a farmer's coop?
13. Vacation closer to home?
14. Communally share tools...like a snowblower for multiple families?
15. Communally share vehicles...like a truck for multiple families?
16. Etc...

I think I could do everything on this list. What would you add or subtract? Why?

The goal here is to cut your energy usage and your waste by 50% to 75%. What would you be willing sacrifice in order to accomplish this goal? What sacrifices couldn't you make? Do you think that you would have the same "quality" of life when you have accomplished this goal?

upnorthkyosa

1.Yes (I already live in an apt. so a small house would be an improvement)
2.No ( I like to walk around in my underwear)
3.Yes (I likes my greens)
4.No (I love my muscle car)
5.No (Too much crime for my kids)
6.I already do
7.I already do
8.If it means more money, yes. If not, then no.
9.No (Too many a-holes & stinky people ride the bus)
10.I do beleive in recycling, but thats about it.
11.No freakin way! I drink beer, eat BB-Q steaks and shoot guns. :mp5:
12.No time between training and work.
13.I live in Vegas, so yeah. There's lot's 'o places to have fun here!
14. a) My neighbor never gave me back the drill I loaned him :2xBird2:
b) Again, I live in Vegas, we don't need snowplows here :ultracool
15.NO ONE drives my muscle car, not even my wife! :whip:
16. You THINK you could do all those, but WOULD you really?

 

[Makalakumu]

16. You THINK you could do all those, but WOULD you really?

Yeah, I would...I would do most of those things of my own volition because I believe that using/consuming less is a good thing to do. I would do everything on the list if life as I know it became more difficult to live as I know it.

 

[Makalakumu]

1. But making changes costs money.. which is the issue here. Right now oil is the cheapest option, once that stops others will take over.

2. Innovation follows need, not the other way around. So until it is needed, it isn't going to happen. My guess is that you are right, our current energy usage can't be sustained much longer. BUT, new technologies will replace the existing ones and things will hit a bump while everyone converts, then end up better. That's just how we progress.

There are a couple of misconceptions in this post that I want to address...

1. Not all energy sources are created equal.

Oil is liquid sunshine.

Fossil fuels are like a battery in the earth that we have tapped into. Sunlight, collected by the most efficient collectors ever created, was turned into carbon compounds by photosynthesis. Over millions of years, these compounds built up in areas, were buried, and chemically reduced by heat and pressure.

The advantages of fossil fuels are numerous...

1. They give off a huge amount of energy.
2. They are highly portable.
3. They are (have been) easily accessed.
4. They are (have been) numerous.
5. They are (have been) cheap to use.

No other forms of energy compare to fossil fuels. None. They literally are the best energy source ever discovered by humans and their cheap abundance is what allows us to live the life we do. The fact that these resources are finite IS what makes our society unsustainable.

2. Innovation does not always follow need.

History is full of derilects where this was not the case. In fact, it is more common for innovation NOT to follow need. Think about how resistant to change people are for a moment...

It is foolish to depend on technology that doesn't exist to provide for unsustainable needs. Especially when nothing is being done to develop the technology.

 

[Makalakumu]

Food Production

If you look at my list, I seem to be very concerned with food production. The reason for this is that our current methods of food production are unsustainable. Sustainable food production is when you put in one calorie of energy and get at least one calorie of food in return. Our current ratio with our current system requires 10 calories of energy for every one calorie of food.

Most of this energy in comes from oil.

Industrial agriculture is a system of large corporate industrialized farms that depend on machinery, fertilizer, pestacides, and transportation in order to function. In fact, every peice of produce you buy at the store has taken an average journey of 1,500 miles before it gets to the store. Organic items included.

As demand on fossil fuels from the world increases and the supply of fossil fuels decreases, the prices will rise sharply. And industrial agriculture will be one of the first victims. The unsustainability of it, will put the system permanently out of business. It is already feeling the squeeze...our government subsidizes agriculture more then any other industry. It can't continue.

Thus, in our future, we will see agriculture return to prominance in our lives. We won't have giant farms that depend on fossil fuels to produce our food. More people will be required to produce food for our population...many many more people. I imagine that the family farm will once again rise to prominance...In the meantime, our economy will pay for the destruction of our efficient decentralized system.

The old will become new.

With that in mind, the native born farmer/labor class will be reborn. Those disaffected by the fossil fuel blowout of the late 20th and early 21st century will comprise this class, relegated to bits of land owned from far away. These people will go from suburbs to serfdom in the span of their lives, suffering from their lack of forethought...finally laying bare the irony of capitalism.

upnorthkyosa