Qinna/Chin na what are your training experiences?

[windwalker099]

Just for the sake of this discussion, how would you counter this "Devil's hand shake" by using whole body connection and timing? After your opponent's other hand get hold of your shaking hand, it's pretty hard to pull your hand back.

This relates to the four guiding principles often cited in Taiji:

沾 (Zhān) – Touch-stick

黏 (Nián) – Adhere

连 (Lián) – Join

随 (Suí) – Follow

From that perspective, there’s no need to “pull back.” When the opponent grabs, they reveal structure and intent. That contact can be used — not by resisting, but by joining and extending it. In the “Devil’s Handshake” example, the grab itself could become the setup for leading them forward or into emptiness.

Whether that’s possible depends on how one develops whole-body connection — including principles like fang song (relaxed integration), the six harmonies, and the ability to separate mind and body.


Taiji, across styles, works with ideas like connection, timing, and whole-body integration — though how those are trained and expressed can vary quite a bit.

Your teacher, Chang Dongsheng, brought a strong foundation in Shuai Jiao, emphasizing structure, timing, and direct, effective application. Your approach reflects this.

In contrast, some lines — like Chen — develop power through winding silk (缠丝 / Chán Sī), using internal spiral torque. The path I follow leans more toward pulling silk (抽丝 / Chōu Sī) — cultivating a threadlike continuity that emphasizes subtle connection over visible coiling.

 

[windwalker099]

Just for the sake of this discussion, how would you counter this "Devil's hand shake" by using whole body connection and timing? After your opponent's other hand get hold of your shaking hand, it's pretty hard to pull your hand back.

This relates to the four guiding principles often cited in Taiji:

沾 (Zhān) – Touch-stick

黏 (Nián) – Adhere

连 (Lián) – Join

随 (Suí) – Follow

From this perspective, there’s no need to “pull back.” When an opponent grabs, they reveal structure and intent. That contact can be used — not by resisting, but by joining and extending. In the “Devil’s Handshake” example, the grab itself can become the setup for leading them forward or into emptiness.

Whether that’s possible depends on how one develops whole-body connection — including principles like fang song (relaxed integration), the six harmonies, and the ability to be able separate mind and body.

Taiji, across styles, works with concepts like connection, timing, and whole-body integration — though how those are trained and expressed can vary widely.

Your teacher, Chang Dongsheng, brought a deep foundation in Shuai Jiao (摔跤), emphasizing structure, timing, and direct, effective application. Your approach reflects this clearly.

In contrast, some lines — like Chen — develop power through winding silk (缠丝 / Chán Sī), training internal spiral torque. The path I’ve followed leans more toward pulling silk (抽丝 / Chōu Sī), cultivating a threadlike continuity that prioritizes subtle connection over visible coiling.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This relates to the four guiding principles often cited in Taiji:

沾 (Zhān) – Touch-stick

黏 (Nián) – Adhere

连 (Lián) – Join

随 (Suí) – Follow

We are talking about 2 different things here. In your video, none of the locking has been started. His opponent just doesn't give him a chance to apply locking.

I agree that if I can run faster than you, none of your technique will work on me. I'm not that interested in "avoid locking". I'm more interested in after a locking has started, how do you counter? For example, in "Devil's hand shake" example, what's your counter after your opponent's 2nd hand can get hold of your shaking hand?

In other words, when a lock has started, can you counter right at that moment?

In another thread, people talk about counter against "head squeeze" in the ground game. IMO, after a head squeeze has started, there is no counter.

 

[windwalker099]

You're right — we’re approaching this from different perspectives.

My method doesn’t rely on countering after a lock has been established. It works earlier — before or at the moment of contact — by redirecting or diffusing the conditions that allow a lock to form in the first place.

We refer to this as the empty and the real (虚实). The idea is that while someone may grab the hand, they haven’t touched the mind — the intent. At the same time, their own structure and intention are revealed through that very act.

It’s not about escaping a lock — it’s about not giving it a foothold to begin with.

In the video I shared, the visitor can’t sense where Mr. Lo is. Even with direct contact, there’s no clear point to engage.

In practice there is a back and forth to allow the other to sense and understand,,,
In usage, it happens quickly — at first contact, it’s already over.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It’s not about escaping a lock — it’s about not giving it a foothold to begin with.

I believe Taiji people like to talk about "how to avoid a clinch" and not interested in talking about "what to do after a clinch has happened?"

What's Taiji solution for this?

 

[windwalker099]

I believe Taiji people like to talk about "how to avoid a clinch" and not interested in talking about "what to do after a clinch has happened?"

It is interesting

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Kind of the point — it's a different method, based on different principles.
I thought some might find it interesting.

In that group, it’s actually common to see people attempt locks and still not be able to apply them — even those with experience in Chinese wrestling (摔跤, Shuāi Jiāo) or other grappling styles.

The original post asked:
"Qinna/Chin Na — what are your training experiences?"

Sharing some of mine.
It’s not a contest, or anything else.
A common way of training principles

Well strictly speaking it’s not Chin na that you presented. You are inserting a thing and saying Chin na won’t work on it. I’m asking for your experiences with Chin na in this thread. I don’t see any lock being attempted in your video. I also don’t see you in the video. I could show you videos of Dr Yang applying locks, but that isn’t my experience, it’s his. Please do go on, I’m sure you have more experience than most.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Using qin'na against a grab is fairly easy as the opponent has provided the opportunity. Against an active combat situation, placing a qin'na type compound joint lock (involving a chain of 2, 3, or even 4 joints) is complex and difficult. Everything must be just right. It is recommended to set up with effective striking to render the opponent momentarily defenseless and then enter for the lock.

Not necessarily complex nor difficult, depending on the situation. Many options do not require a set up strike to enter. Once contact is made, many off ramps become available.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That may be true in your experience — it was in mine as well, until I met my teacher and his group.
I had been searching for something I could intuitively feel, but had no words or framework to express.

Based on my own experience, which spans some time and includes working with a wide range of styles and systems, the approach is quite different.

In Taiji, there’s a saying: “the whole body is the hand” (全身是手 / quán shēn shì shǒu).
From this perspective, there aren’t 2, 3, or 4 joints to control in sequence.
You’re not chasing limbs or isolating parts — you’re engaging the whole, through connection and timing.

It’s not necessarily easier — just based on a different principle.

You are using Tai Chi principles to defeat Chin na, which is fine and truly admirable, but it is still not the focus of this thread.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Kicking and punching are in that video. This makes the joint locking more realistic.

Yes we of course strike and kick and everything else, Chin na attacks are just more tools in the tool box. Specifically like a socket set, they each have a specific use.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I have to disagree with you on this. "Finger break" (the 1st joint lock that peopel will learn) is a good example. No matter how strong his body structure may be, you will break his finger. When you do that, you are only dealing with his 1 finger. You are not dealing with his whole body.

Just for the sake of this discussion, how would you counter this "Devil's hand shake" by using whole body connection and timing? After your opponent's other hand get hold of your shaking hand, it's pretty hard to pull your hand back.

Agreed!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This relates to the four guiding principles often cited in Taiji:

沾 (Zhān) – Touch-stick

黏 (Nián) – Adhere

连 (Lián) – Join

随 (Suí) – Follow

From that perspective, there’s no need to “pull back.” When the opponent grabs, they reveal structure and intent. That contact can be used — not by resisting, but by joining and extending it. In the “Devil’s Handshake” example, the grab itself could become the setup for leading them forward or into emptiness.

Whether that’s possible depends on how one develops whole-body connection — including principles like fang song (relaxed integration), the six harmonies, and the ability to separate mind and body.


Taiji, across styles, works with ideas like connection, timing, and whole-body integration — though how those are trained and expressed can vary quite a bit.

Your teacher, Chang Dongsheng, brought a strong foundation in Shuai Jiao, emphasizing structure, timing, and direct, effective application. Your approach reflects this.

In contrast, some lines — like Chen — develop power through winding silk (缠丝 / Chán Sī), using internal spiral torque. The path I follow leans more toward pulling silk (抽丝 / Chōu Sī) — cultivating a threadlike continuity that emphasizes subtle connection over visible coiling.

I believe you, I know you have training, are you saying no locks can work on you? That you cannot be countered?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You're right — we’re approaching this from different perspectives.

My method doesn’t rely on countering after a lock has been established. It works earlier — before or at the moment of contact — by redirecting or diffusing the conditions that allow a lock to form in the first place.

We refer to this as the empty and the real (虚实). The idea is that while someone may grab the hand, they haven’t touched the mind — the intent. At the same time, their own structure and intention are revealed through that very act.

It’s not about escaping a lock — it’s about not giving it a foothold to begin with.

In the video I shared, the visitor can’t sense where Mr. Lo is. Even with direct contact, there’s no clear point to engage.

In practice there is a back and forth to allow the other to sense and understand,,,
In usage, it happens quickly — at first contact, it’s already over.

I think we understand the concept, which is a valid one IMO, but it is not Chin na per se.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It seems that quite a few martial arts have some cursory training in Chin na techniques, do any of you include this in your training and if so, which techniques?

 

[windwalker099]

are you good at tai chi windwalker?

Interesting question…

If I had to rate myself, I’d say my skill is still developing — especially compared to the depth I’ve seen in others over the years.

That said, among those I’ve interacted with in China and Taiwan —with people I consider peers — they’ve acknowledged my skill as reflective of what they recognize as Taiji. In other words, what I practice aligns with the skill sets they associate with the art.

Why do you ask?

 

[Prince_Alarming]

I have to disagree with you on this. "Finger break" (the 1st joint lock that peopel will learn) is a good example. No matter how strong his body structure may be, you will break his finger. When you do that, you are only dealing with his 1 finger. You are not dealing with his whole body.

Just for the sake of this discussion, how would you counter this "Devil's hand shake" by using whole body connection and timing? After your opponent's other hand get hold of your shaking hand, it's pretty hard to pull your hand back.

Pinan sandan? is it just me seeing that?

 

[windwalker099]

I believe Taiji people like to talk about "how to avoid a clinch" and not interested in talking about "what to do after a clinch has happened?"

What's Taiji solution for this?

That’s a fair point — highlights one of the differences in approach.

Taiji, at least in the method I practice, isn’t built around escaping after something has already locked in. The goal is to never offer the structure a clinch needs to form in the first place.

But if a clinch does happen — if contact is already committed — the response doesn’t shift to struggling against it. Instead, it works through internal change: redirecting center, dissolving fixed points, unifying or emptying the structure.

In that moment, it’s not about fighting for position — it’s about removing what the other person is depending on.

Even in a clinch, if you can change without changing — 不变中之变 — then the structure they think they have begins to shift under them.

So yes, Taiji does have something to say about the clinch — just not in the way people might expect.

 

[windwalker099]

I think we understand the concept, which is a valid one IMO, but it is not Chin na per se.

One might ask: what is Chin Na (擒拿)?

In general Chin Na means “seize and control” — referring to techniques used to restrain or disable an opponent through joint locks, muscle manipulation, or structural disruption.

How it’s applied varies by system:

External styles (like Shaolin, Eagle Claw) tend to rely on force, speed, and leverage.

Internal styles (like Taiji) emphasize timing, connection, and whole-body integration. Control isn’t forced — it’s revealed, often when the opponent overcommits or loses their center.

In Taiji, it’s not about chasing limbs — it’s about meeting intention. The four guiding principles apply:

沾 (Zhān) – Touch-stick
黏 (Nián) – Adhere
连 (Lián) – Join
随 (Suí) – Follow

Control isn’t taken — it’s offered, often without the other realizing it.

Find the discussion interesting. Reading the different viewpoints helps me clarify
or sometimes challenge — my own.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think we understand the concept, which is a valid one IMO, but it is not Chin na per se.

I have the same question. If I remain 10 feet distance from you, am I counter your Chin Na?

When discussion get involved with Taiji, it suddenly becomes abstract.

In Taiji, it’s not about chasing limbs — it’s about meeting intention.

You have not responded my question about Taiji "finger break" counter yet. When I try to break my opponent's finger, I truly don't care about his "intention" and I'm "chasing limbs".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

沾 (Zhān) – Touch-stick
黏 (Nián) – Adhere
连 (Lián) – Join
随 (Suí) – Follow

I had applied "circular dragging" on so many Taiji guys in my life. They all tried to use these principles. Yield and follow mean my opponent is going the same direction as I'm going. When my opponent did that, all I needed to do is suddenly reverse my direction, a body contact could be achieved.

Unfortunately, the proper counter should be "cut angle and interrupt" instead. But I assume "cut angle and interrupt" is too aggressive and not part of the Taiji principles.

- A applies circular dragging on B.
- B cuts in front of B's path and interrupts A's intention.