Chin na training

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Wing Woo Gar

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Another thing that doesn't make sense in this video is when his opponent uses left hand to grab on his right wrist, he turns his right hand counterclockwise to against his opponent's 4 fingers instead of to turn his right hand clockwise to against his opponent's 1 finger, the thumb. If his opponent has strong grip, he may not be able to turn his right hand counterclockwise (4 fingers strength is much stronger than 1 finger strength).
4 finger grip may not work if the opponent can straighten his one finger. That one definitely surprised me.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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I'm not giving you advice on your training. It's the wording of "applying the least amount" I've just seen many people take that into the wrong direction when it comes to martial arts. For example, I've heard many people say things like "use the least amount....." to defeat someone or to use a technique, yet all of the people I've met who knew how to apply their martial arts were strong.

So when I hear those in the martial arts world say "least amount...." I really begin to question how they are defining "least amount."
I question how anyone defines it with words. Strength is important and necessary to have in general. I focus on staying as fit as is possible in a realistically achievable way considering my real life schedule. Using an appropriate amount of strength can be difficult for people, particularly if they are very strong, or they have successfully relied on muscling through things. Strength of structure is a different thing altogether. The art of stacking and folding, the inaction that creates the action, the quality of the root, these things pay better dividends over time IMO.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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I learned a little from Jow Ga but not much. It was only focused on a few techniques, but it never caught on.
It seems that most people only know a few of the techniques. Dr. Yang has quite a large number. He himself said only about a dozen are much good for fighting in most common situations.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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This is what is a better explanation. I just really don't like the "apply the least" phrases so it's just one of my soap box thing lol. The only days I've know kung fu to be "the least" amount were my healing days lol.
I think its a semantic, if we were in person, you could just show me what you mean and vice versa. That would probably take us seconds, whereas texting takes an hour of back and forth ing.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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It seems that most people only know a few of the techniques. Dr. Yang has quite a large number. He himself said only about a dozen are much good for fighting in most common situations.
In long fist system, there are around 40 of those Chin Na techniques:

1. finger lock,
2. wrist lock,
3. elbow lock,
4. shoulder lock,
5. head/neck lock,
6. spine lock,
7. knee lock,
8. ankle lock.

It doesn't take much time for anybody to learn all those locks. But to learn how to change from 1 lock into next lock may take time.

Here is a long fist Chin Na 2 men form that shows those changes.

 

Xue Sheng

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Does it make sense to use your left hand to grab on your opponent's right wrist? Your opponent's left hand can punch on your face.

When you use left hand to grab on your opponent's left wrist, if your opponent's right hand tries to punch on your face, you can pull his left arm to jam his right arm. You can't do that in the above video.

IMO, when you use left hand to control your opponent's right wrist, you should also use your right hand to control his left wrist (so he can't punch you).

There is a similar Qinna technique taught by Dr Yangand I can tell you from experince it works rather well.... difference is Dr Yang is locking you and either stepping back or forward deoending on the energy coming at him.

It is not slow, it is fast and it works. In Aikido, understand it in reality of the application, before you say it makes no sense, that the video is a training video, it is applied fast and generally with all things aikido it has taken you off the line.

Different techniques are used for different applications. If they are throwing punches you would not use that application. If they grab your wrist to control you...you take control

Easy to arm chair critique a video..watch this

If I look at your linked video it makes no sense you bring them close, they can then head butt you or knee you in the groin...
 

JowGaWolf

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I question how anyone defines it with words. Strength is important and necessary to have in general. I focus on staying as fit as is possible in a realistically achievable way considering my real life schedule. Using an appropriate amount of strength can be difficult for people, particularly if they are very strong, or they have successfully relied on muscling through things. Strength of structure is a different thing altogether. The art of stacking and folding, the inaction that creates the action, the quality of the root, these things pay better dividends over time IMO.
I believe this 100% as I see it play out. Youth talk about strength "old people" talk about technique but not much about the strength that is leaving them. I put say old people but that strength begins to leave well before we get old. We gradually get stronger we gradually get weaker. It's only natural to learn to be effective with the strength that we have. Work with what we have.

When that teen said he like watching me work out, I told him that at my age I have no other choice but to be technical.
 

JowGaWolf

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It seems that most people only know a few of the techniques. Dr. Yang has quite a large number. He himself said only about a dozen are much good for fighting in most common situations.
That falls in line with fighting in general which is awesome to hear him reflect that. Keeping it real. I wonder how many would be good for restraining from a law enforcement perspective vs an all out fight perspective.
 

JowGaWolf

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In long fist system, there are around 40 of those Chin Na techniques:

1. finger lock,
2. wrist lock,
3. elbow lock,
4. shoulder lock,
5. head/neck lock,
6. spine lock,
7. knee lock,
8. ankle lock.

It doesn't take much time for anybody to learn all those locks. But to learn how to change from 1 lock into next lock may take time.

Here is a long fist Chin Na 2 men form that shows those changes.

My approach to grappling is the same as my striking. System A vs System has low returns. Jow ga 2 man set has a lot of joint locks but no BJJ person will go for those types of locks. In terms of forms I think those forms should be updated to address what students will most likely have yo deal with. This way students can focus on the more practical techniques for the time period.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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I believe this 100% as I see it play out. Youth talk about strength "old people" talk about technique but not much about the strength that is leaving them. I put say old people but that strength begins to leave well before we get old. We gradually get stronger we gradually get weaker. It's only natural to learn to be effective with the strength that we have. Work with what we have.

When that teen said he like watching me work out, I told him that at my age I have no other choice but to be technical.
This is true for most of us, then there are these people like David Goggins that make me feel like I must be making excuses for myself more often than I realized. That dude is 48, an absolute fitness beast.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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That falls in line with fighting in general which is awesome to hear him reflect that. Keeping it real. I wonder how many would be good for restraining from a law enforcement perspective vs an all out fight perspective.
Well Im only about 5 months in with him, so I have only seen level one. When Im trying to apply the techniques on a resisting opponent, he will instruct the opponent to kick, slap, grab me in order to take my momentum from me and make work to set the lock up. Its not really sparring per se, but it is the first step towards it. It helps that my opponents are usually a few of my training brothers from Wing Woo Gar that I have been training with for 25 years and more. That kind of trust is difficult to find in a group of strangers. These guys know all about me and have seen my whole bag of tricks so I cant get over on them as easy. It does two extra things for me to have my buddies there. First, it makes training Chin Na integrative to our style in general because we all had the same Sifu and Sigung. Second, these guys make me work so much harder when they are there because we all have built a culture out of pushing each other as hard as we can to strive. A couple of them have given me some of the most humbling beatings Ive ever had in a gym. Im grateful for them, they make me earn every last inch of progress.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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That falls in line with fighting in general which is awesome to hear him reflect that. Keeping it real. I wonder how many would be good for restraining from a law enforcement perspective vs an all out fight perspective.
On the restraint part, Dr Yang says Chin Na is not for restraint or submission. I will tell you he can certainly restrain or submit me in less than a hot second. He has one technique he created that he calls ice cream AKA I scream. I was able to resist this one, and so he added peanuts to the ice cream. I will never look at peanuts on ice cream the same way again. If you ever come to Humboldt county Im happy to take you up to meet him and do some Chin Na. He told me I can bring people to him as long as they are not afraid of Chinese spankings(pain).
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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My approach to grappling is the same as my striking. System A vs System has low returns. Jow ga 2 man set has a lot of joint locks but no BJJ person will go for those types of locks. In terms of forms I think those forms should be updated to address what students will most likely have yo deal with. This way students can focus on the more practical techniques for the time period.
Im hoping to get with a BJJ brown belt I know to try out some Chin Na techniques and see what he thinks. I need more training first, I want to firmly grasp what I have before that because the BJJ guy is very skilled and I dont to waste his time with my poorly executed beginner techniques.
 

Tony Dismukes

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Im hoping to get with a BJJ brown belt I know to try out some Chin Na techniques and see what he thinks. I need more training first, I want to firmly grasp what I have before that because the BJJ guy is very skilled and I dont to waste his time with my poorly executed beginner techniques.
If you have any videos you want to post of someone demoing the techniques, I can give you my opinions. I wont claim to be expert at the sort of moves normally taught in Chin Na, but I think Ive been taught or at least played around with some version of just about every Chin Na technique that Ive seen in books or video.
 

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Dr Yang says Chin Na is not for restraint or submission.
"Kung fu, is not for fighting". He's right. It's for outright domination.

I did some pummeling practice last night against a man 30 years younger. He was strong, arrogant, brazen, and confident.

Right up until I put his arm behind him and then he started braying.
 

Oily Dragon

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Im hoping to get with a BJJ brown belt I know to try out some Chin Na techniques and see what he thinks. I need more training first, I want to firmly grasp what I have before that because the BJJ guy is very skilled and I dont to waste his time with my poorly executed beginner techniques.
Key thing to remember, you can't break his wrist or elbow.

You have to be careful and feel for the tap.

Brown belts should be experienced enough to tap you, vs the mat.
 

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If you have any videos you want to post of someone demoing the techniques, I can give you my opinions. I wont claim to be expert at the sort of moves normally taught in Chin Na, but I think Ive been taught or at least played around with some version of just about every Chin Na technique that Ive seen in books or video.
Yeah watch out for that Tony guy. He picks things up easily lol
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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If you have any videos you want to post of someone demoing the techniques, I can give you my opinions. I wont claim to be expert at the sort of moves normally taught in Chin Na, but I think Ive been taught or at least played around with some version of just about every Chin Na technique that Ive seen in books or video.
Sounds good, at some point I will definitely reach out to you on this.
 
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