qestion about squeezing the peach

[Twin Fist]

would it violate the rules of the techniques to change the order of the strikes?

in particular, the scooping kick / elbow.

it seems to me that the technique would be fine if it was executed with those two strikes reversed but i might be missing something important......

 

[MJS]

The tech. as written, has the scoop kick and the elbow done at the same time. For me, I don't like this. I find myself too off balance. I say this because all I've done at that moment, is strike the groin, and now I'm going to be standing on one leg? I want to be as much in balance as possible. So, that being said, I do the rear scoop then the elbow. The time delay isn't that much....as soon as my foot touchs the ground again, the elbow is being shot up.

Could the elbow be done first? Possibly, but I'm going to say that the kick is done first, to further aid in loosening up the arms. I'd imagine after 2 hits, they'd loosen up pretty good.




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[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

would it violate the rules of the techniques to change the order of the strikes?

in particular, the scooping kick / elbow.

it seems to me that the technique would be fine if it was executed with those two strikes reversed but i might be missing something important......

Short answer: yes. It would compromise the teaching mechanisms within the technique that emphasize Marriage of Gravity (yours and his), borrowed force, angles of disturbance lending to a guided collision, body contouring, body momentum off a buckling check, and 1/4 beat timing.

Not sure how y'all are doing it, but there is a 1/4 beat stutter-step rhythm to settling after the scoop, and before the elbow...buckle the opponents left knee by stomping your scooping leg down into the right reverse bow toward 7:30, timed to the execution of the obscure back elbow -- this motion after the scoop spreads his legs apart, snaps his head & upper body down towards the space the elbow is a split second away fom occupying, utilizing his weight, gravity, and his bodily momentum against him...sucks him downward into the upward-rising blow (PAIRED RHYTHM = only moving as fast as we need to to allow this stuff to meet the bad guy at the proper points of intersection).

Each move starts him downward, like chopping down a tree and causing it to go faster and faster toward the forest floor with each hit, until it's accelerating rapidly towards the forest floor. Just when it hits maximum speed, instead of yelling "timber", you shoot something up at it, hitting harder for the confluence of colliding forces.

You should never be unstable on one foot, except perhaps in the moment of stance transition; buttock out, knees bent, height decreasing as the momentum of the tech takes wing...all these serve to stabilize your position with the delivery of the scoop; not to mention, stepping 12:00-ish with the left before driving the right scoop upward and reaward pulls him forward, creating a guided collision with the scoop; he shouldn't have the chance to get his poop together; that's part of the internal lessons of the technique. It's not a crane stance kick; there is a step back with left foot with the squeeze (remember: This is a palm-heel thrust/claw/rake that LOOKS like a squeeze...Finger Set, anybody?) then a step thru forward with the left before launching the scoop; the scoop timing is "puh-PAP!"...left foot stepping forward hits the ground with the "puh-", and the energy of the muscles engaging in planting the left foot firmly against the ground (stomp on a cockroach) provides the launching platform for whipping the scoop skyward, heel-first.

After the moment of contact by the scoop, the right leg thrusts vigorously as it contours down the inside of the attackers left leg, buckling as we stomp that right foot down into a reverse bow...don't just PUT it down, make it a minor strike, utilizing your leg. Dropping the height of your head and settling your body as you do. This employs your own Marriage of Gravity, and spreads his legs apart, lowering his upper carriage towards the floor, even more. Three hits, all progressively lowering him, AND YOURSELF.

Think about incremental height adjustments while training this tech. Drop an inch with each rhythmic increment. Standing position until attacked = 6 feet tall. Step back with palm/claw/rake = 5feet-11inches. Step forward again with left = dropping your own height to 5-feet 10 inches. Heel lifts for the scoop, drop another inch, etc. By the time you land in and spike the reverse bow, striking him with the stance and taking his own stance away, your height drops and his height drops will amount to an accelerated velocity towards the floor. On the way down, he meets the obscure elbow as it's on the way up.

Gawds, I babble. Need coffee. Buh-bye; hope it helped.

D.

 

[Twin Fist]

here is why i dislike the sequence.

I dislike hitting the same target twice in a row.

why? nerve overload. The nervous system will release endorphins in response to pain, hit some target, endorphins are released in that area, and the second hit isnt felt and sometimes wont have an effect.

so i try to avoid hitting the same target twice in a row.

after you have just slapped the groin, then yanked on it, i think the elbow in a totally different zone is a better idea than to AGAIN hit a now numbed up groin.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

here is why i dislike the sequence.

I dislike hitting the same target twice in a row.

why? nerve overload. The nervous system will release endorphins in response to pain, hit some target, endorphins are released in that area, and the second hit isnt felt and sometimes wont have an effect.

so i try to avoid hitting the same target twice in a row.

after you have just slapped the groin, then yanked on it, i think the elbow in a totally different zone is a better idea than to AGAIN hit a now numbed up groin.

In general terms, I agree with you. One of the principle rules of technique formation is splitting targets and zones so you never hit the same twice, but for different reasons.

If you're worried about numb-nuts, I would tend to think it's either a misplaced concern in this particular instance, or you're taking waaaaaayyyyy too long between hits. Chances are, if you're chaining and stacking the blows in good timing and sequence, his brain will just be getting the signals of pain from the first hit at about the time the elbow lands. There's a difference in speeds between real reflex arcs, patterned reflex arcs, and percpetion of sensation.

 

[Twin Fist]

see, thats the thing, you know where i learned my EPAK from, so as you know, i dont just rely on the techniques, since i didnt learn all of them, and none of the extensions, so i have to go mostly on principles

and alternating target zones is a big one for me.

what you are saying makes sense tho, so i will try the technique as written

 

[MJS]

Short answer: yes. It would compromise the teaching mechanisms within the technique that emphasize Marriage of Gravity (yours and his), borrowed force, angles of disturbance lending to a guided collision, body contouring, body momentum off a buckling check, and 1/4 beat timing.

Not sure how y'all are doing it, but there is a 1/4 beat stutter-step rhythm to settling after the scoop, and before the elbow...buckle the opponents left knee by stomping your scooping leg down into the right reverse bow toward 7:30, timed to the execution of the obscure back elbow -- this motion after the scoop spreads his legs apart, snaps his head & upper body down towards the space the elbow is a split second away fom occupying, utilizing his weight, gravity, and his bodily momentum against him...sucks him downward into the upward-rising blow (PAIRED RHYTHM = only moving as fast as we need to to allow this stuff to meet the bad guy at the proper points of intersection).

Each move starts him downward, like chopping down a tree and causing it to go faster and faster toward the forest floor with each hit, until it's accelerating rapidly towards the forest floor. Just when it hits maximum speed, instead of yelling "timber", you shoot something up at it, hitting harder for the confluence of colliding forces.

You should never be unstable on one foot, except perhaps in the moment of stance transition; buttock out, knees bent, height decreasing as the momentum of the tech takes wing...all these serve to stabilize your position with the delivery of the scoop; not to mention, stepping 12:00-ish with the left before driving the right scoop upward and reaward pulls him forward, creating a guided collision with the scoop; he shouldn't have the chance to get his poop together; that's part of the internal lessons of the technique. It's not a crane stance kick; there is a step back with left foot with the squeeze (remember: This is a palm-heel thrust/claw/rake that LOOKS like a squeeze...Finger Set, anybody?) then a step thru forward with the left before launching the scoop; the scoop timing is "puh-PAP!"...left foot stepping forward hits the ground with the "puh-", and the energy of the muscles engaging in planting the left foot firmly against the ground (stomp on a cockroach) provides the launching platform for whipping the scoop skyward, heel-first.

After the moment of contact by the scoop, the right leg thrusts vigorously as it contours down the inside of the attackers left leg, buckling as we stomp that right foot down into a reverse bow...don't just PUT it down, make it a minor strike, utilizing your leg. Dropping the height of your head and settling your body as you do. This employs your own Marriage of Gravity, and spreads his legs apart, lowering his upper carriage towards the floor, even more. Three hits, all progressively lowering him, AND YOURSELF.

Think about incremental height adjustments while training this tech. Drop an inch with each rhythmic increment. Standing position until attacked = 6 feet tall. Step back with palm/claw/rake = 5feet-11inches. Step forward again with left = dropping your own height to 5-feet 10 inches. Heel lifts for the scoop, drop another inch, etc. By the time you land in and spike the reverse bow, striking him with the stance and taking his own stance away, your height drops and his height drops will amount to an accelerated velocity towards the floor. On the way down, he meets the obscure elbow as it's on the way up.

Gawds, I babble. Need coffee. Buh-bye; hope it helped.

D.

I'd copy and paste this, but it doesn't seem to want to come out clear, so I'll post the link instead. Here. Look at #5 which is the tech. breakdown. Kinda hard to picture techs. mentally, so I'm going to have to play with this one next time I'm in class, so I have a body to use.

When I learned this tech., I learned it without the right leg buckle to O's left leg. It was a scoop and simultaneous elbow, thus, the off balance comment by me. If we take note to the Mike Billings link, there is no mention of a stutter step.

Here is Juan and Cliff doing this tech. Watching them, the stutter is pretty clear....scoop kick, land, shoot the leg back, elbow.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I'd copy and paste this, but it doesn't seem to want to come out clear, so I'll post the link instead. Here. Look at #5 which is the tech. breakdown. Kinda hard to picture techs. mentally, so I'm going to have to play with this one next time I'm in class, so I have a body to use.

When I learned this tech., I learned it without the right leg buckle to O's left leg. It was a scoop and simultaneous elbow, thus, the off balance comment by me. If we take note to the Mike Billings link, there is no mention of a stutter step.

Here is Juan and Cliff doing this tech. Watching them, the stutter is pretty clear....scoop kick, land, shoot the leg back, elbow.

I tend to go after it like a front-to-back switch, with the scoop "on the way". So the timing is more condensed, and you never quite leave the zone of engagement.

And just for the record...I still hate this technique. I tend to rate techniques in my mind though the "Cult of the Bear" filter...could a Viking berserker going ape on a battlefield whip this off as part of a spaz fit against multiple opponents? If so, I tend to appreciate it. if not, I tend to diminish it in my own pea brain. Can't really see Grimmthor the Hairy ripping off StP as part of a BattleRage episiode.

I teach the technique to cover timing and height controls tactics, but then tell people to forget it...keep the concepts, drop the sequence.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

see, thats the thing, you know where i learned my EPAK from, so as you know, i dont just rely on the techniques, since i didnt learn all of them, and none of the extensions, so i have to go mostly on principles

and alternating target zones is a big one for me.

what you are saying makes sense tho, so i will try the technique as written

Odd thing is -- the concepts & principles in StP are excellent. But, somehow, the technique still manages to blow, IMO. I'd say try it as written to work on decreasing height zones, commanding the attackers base, diminishing their height actively through strike sequences, etc. Then, once you have a better physical feel for applying those concepts, look for where they crop up elsewhere in the techniques, and round-file StP for a spell.

Despite being rich conceptual territory, the tech itself is cumbersome, awkward, and filled with other bad ideas with respect to actively cancelling an attackers weapons. Specifically...nothing is done to address his hands; anything in there to keep him from deciding to let go the bearhug and just start raining punches on our heads while we do fancy kenpo?

D.

 

[yorkshirelad]

here is why i dislike the sequence.

I dislike hitting the same target twice in a row.

.

So what my boxing coaches have taught me have been nonsense. Would you credit it? Fundamental boxing combos such as, double jab, cross and double hooks to the liver are frowned upon by you....hm...interesting. Just kidding!

When it comes to 'Squeezing the Peach' why change the sequence. The grab to 'the Peach' ahs a different purpose than the scoop kick. The grab is for; pain compliance, to control the attacker as you step from 5:30 to 1:30 with the left leg, a positional check, to ensure the opponants hands are subdued during the transitional foot manuveurs and a gravitational check, if at the end of the foot transition the groin is pulled on a downward diaganol angle, thus controlling the opponant's height zone and in turn his legs.
The scoop kick on the other hand is obviously used for percussion purposes and supplies borrowed force for the obscure elbow along with gravitational marriage as the right leg settles into the buckle.
The technique works in the ideal phase when done correctly. By all means rearrange the techniue to suit your needs, but before you do, invest in the 'Infinite Insights' series and the Encyclopedia of Kenpo in order to understand the principles applied in the technique. Only when you understand should you begin rearranging things.
I want to make it clear that this post is not designed to be offensive, we have had our differences and I know that 'He who is not to be named' did not use kenpo terminology or explain the application of principles in techniques to a satisfactory extent. I hope this helps somewhat.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

So what my boxing coaches have taught me have been nonsense. Would you credit it? Fundamental boxing combos such as, double jab, cross and double hooks to the liver are frowned upon by you....hm...interesting. Just kidding!

When it comes to 'Squeezing the Peach' why change the sequence. The grab to 'the Peach' ahs a different purpose than the scoop kick. The grab is for; pain compliance, to control the attacker as you step from 5:30 to 1:30 with the left leg, a positional check, to ensure the opponants hands are subdued during the transitional foot manuveurs and a gravitational check, if at the end of the foot transition the groin is pulled on a downward diaganol angle, thus controlling the opponant's height zone and in turn his legs.
The scoop kick on the other hand is obviously used for percussion purposes and supplies borrowed force for the obscure elbow along with gravitational marriage as the right leg settles into the buckle.
The technique works in the ideal phase when done correctly. By all means rearrange the techniue to suit your needs, but before you do, invest in the 'Infinite Insights' series and the Encyclopedia of Kenpo in order to understand the principles applied in the technique. Only when you understand should you begin rearranging things.
I want to make it clear that this post is not designed to be offensive, we have had our differences and I know that 'He who is not to be named' did not use kenpo terminology or explain the application of principles in techniques to a satisfactory extent. I hope this helps somewhat.

You may already have it, but in addition to the II and Encyclopedia, I think the best kenpo resource I have seen yet is Rich Hales Kenpo Journal cd-rom. Its a relational database which lists the techs, themes, notes, C&P, terms, etc. Excellent resource; half the time I have anything intelligent to say, it's cuz I cheated and looked it up on Rich's CD.

OK. So I'm exaggerating a little -- I only come up with something decent to contribute on my own 25% of the time.

Seriously -- I think it's, like, 40 bucks, and the best stand-alone reference I have seen yet.

End shameless plug,

Dave

PS -- you can find it here: www.kenpojournal.com

 

[yorkshirelad]

You may already have it, but in addition to the II and Encyclopedia, I think the best kenpo resource I have seen yet is Rich Hales Kenpo Journal cd-rom. Its a relational database which lists the techs, themes, notes, C&P, terms, etc. Excellent resource; half the time I have anything intelligent to say, it's cuz I cheated and looked it up on Rich's CD.

OK. So I'm exaggerating a little -- I only come up with something decent to contribute on my own 25% of the time.

Seriously -- I think it's, like, 40 bucks, and the best stand-alone reference I have seen yet.

End shameless plug,

Dave

PS -- you can find it here: www.kenpojournal.com

I'm short of dinero right now Dave, but when I get financially sorted, I'm definately in for this one. $40 for a hike in the landscape of Rich Hale's head, would be a small price indeed, I suspect.

You might want to publish some of your own musings also.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Just had a look at the website for Rich Hale's journal. Wow, what a resource. Everything is covered including a directory teachers. No stone is left unturned. Great recommendation Dave.

 

[MJS]

I tend to go after it like a front-to-back switch, with the scoop "on the way". So the timing is more condensed, and you never quite leave the zone of engagement.

And just for the record...I still hate this technique. I tend to rate techniques in my mind though the "Cult of the Bear" filter...could a Viking berserker going ape on a battlefield whip this off as part of a spaz fit against multiple opponents? If so, I tend to appreciate it. if not, I tend to diminish it in my own pea brain. Can't really see Grimmthor the Hairy ripping off StP as part of a BattleRage episiode.

I teach the technique to cover timing and height controls tactics, but then tell people to forget it...keep the concepts, drop the sequence.

I'm the same way. There are ones that I like, ones that I hate. I teach it all, but likewise, while I may not do that said tech., the concepts are certainly there.

 

[MJS]

Odd thing is -- the concepts & principles in StP are excellent. But, somehow, the technique still manages to blow, IMO. I'd say try it as written to work on decreasing height zones, commanding the attackers base, diminishing their height actively through strike sequences, etc. Then, once you have a better physical feel for applying those concepts, look for where they crop up elsewhere in the techniques, and round-file StP for a spell.

Despite being rich conceptual territory, the tech itself is cumbersome, awkward, and filled with other bad ideas with respect to actively cancelling an attackers weapons. Specifically...nothing is done to address his hands; anything in there to keep him from deciding to let go the bearhug and just start raining punches on our heads while we do fancy kenpo?

D.

You're right. Do the initial grab to the 'peaches' and pin the hand, but after that, you have someone behind you with their hands free. Will they be holding their groin, unable to move because of the severe pain? Who knows, but I don't want to bank on it.

Is this tech. taught by Doc? If so, are there any changes, differences, etc. that he does to make this more applicable to address your concerns?

 

[MJS]

Just bumping this up for further discussion. I'm interested in hearing how others approch this.

 

[jaybacca72]

squeezing the peach is just like it says you dont just strike the groin on the first step you leave your hand ther and squeeze as you step forward with your left oot to 130 and force your opponent to make the mandatory step, then scoop as told earlier then elbow then same as well.
look for other techs that make the person take a mandatory step you might be surprised.

Jason Arnold
Canada

ps havent been on here for awhile just thought i would throw something out for a change