I'm in agreement with nearly everything you're posting here. However, I believe you said upthread your classes were quite long - 3 hours or something? What I think the primary disagreement here is within the context of a shorter class.7* said:but there is an old saying, "there is being in shape and there is being in kung fu shape".
If I'm there for an hour and a half, I want more than 45 minutes of instruction, bag work, sparring, drilling, etc. I want an hour and a half. I'll do the rest on my own time.lead post said:I was curious about how everyone feels about long bouts of calisthenics in a class before the actual training starts. My wife has been having arguments about this with the instructors from her former (now sister) school. They have two 90 minute classes each week. Of that time, they spend a minimum of 30 minutes doing PT(often times it's more like 45).
I mainly agree with this. I just think that a mathematician ought teach calculus and the chemist teach chemistry. Particularly at more advanced levels.7* said:A chemestry expert didn't become so by only sitting in chemestry classes reading the periodical table. Your example is flawed, but I would say yes you do need clculus to perform true chemestry. Its flawed because your trying to make it one demensional and its not. The physical application of learned techniques takes physical activity so you can't remove physical fitness from the learning process. I'm not talking about running 5 miles in class, but a 20 - 30 minute warmup is certainly not going to take too much time to learn something.
Measurably more benefit than not having worked out to this degree immediately before having to use them? Why?7* said:Its not the pushups or the "ripped chest" they give that is the benefit in my opinion, its the exhausting of the chest and arm muscles before having to use them to perform martial behaviors that gives benefit.
True, very true!mrhnau said:I'm not condoning being out of shape and having absolutely no muscle/endurance at all. Shoot, even if you take the "flight" rather than "fight" path, you better be able to run faster than your opponent LOL
Ok, I agree with you to a point here. First I'll say that my system is principle driven rather than technique driven so I would say all you have is your principles. However, not all you have is your techniques. If you have at one point had endurance, speed, strength, etc then you have learned to dynamically apply your techniques. So its not just a learned technique that you have but an alive understanding of how to actively apply said techniques. Thats my point in the heavy working out part of training. Its not to increase any body's endurance or stamina (20 minutes isn't enough for that anyway) but to put the learning of techniques in the right environment and include the needed "pre-reqs" to really learn the technique and how to apply it. I believe there is a huge difference in learning a technique and learning how to apply a technique.mrhnau said:So, what happens when you get older? You no longer have speed, your strength has probably diminished, and you won't have as much endurance. What you do have is technique. I've met -alot- of older guys I'd not want to fight. Its not that they could run faster, jump higher, strike harder, but they had an understanding of the art (in my case bujinkan) that does not require you to be the strongest on the block to defeat your foe. Alot of times in my class I get told "relax" rather than trying to muscle through a technique. You know what? When I'm relaxed, the technique sure works alot better. This is probably not consistent w/ other arts (boxing, muay thai, ect), but I've found that to be true in my training. Some of the less strong people in my class still had strong technique.
Well in your example of university is the goal (effective fighting) the chemestry class or the graduation and receiving the diploma? There are many different needed skills for martial arts and without learning them together you must try and apply them together for the first time in a real situation where mistakes may mean your life.mrhnau said:Exactly. You have prerequisites for chemistry. Relating this to martial arts, what are the prerequisites? What are the set of skills you should pick up on your own vs pick up in class? Certain exercises may be great for your style. I have no problem with that. A boxer wants to lift weights while training, or a TKD person wants to do 100 kicks. That works! More power to you! I don't expect the same from an aikidoka though.
Actually I would rather fight both of those guys than the one who runs 10 miles (I could care less about weights) and actively trains his martial arts knowledge with physical training. Knowledge is useless without the bodies ability to perform the needed task. If I could run 10 miles and was attacked by this shihan that couldn't, I could just out run himmrhnau said:Life is sure dynamic isn't it <img alt="" title="Smilie" border="0"> Props to those who develop in that fashion. Boxers train different than aikidoka because they need to be in different types of shape to effectively execute their goals. I agree that fitness can help you overcome alot of obsticles, but its not the final answer in things. Would you rather fighting someone that can run 10 miles and bench press 300 lbs or some shihan w/ buckets of knowledge on how to make your life miserable? Granted, its great if he is in shape, but I'd wager on the shihan over the muscle man.
Let me explain my art a bit more. I would actually say what I train is "softer" or more relient on others energy than even aikido is. I just think the higher levels of endurance and stamina only serve to increase the effectiveness of these types of techniques.mrhnau said:then you hold no value in an art like Aikido? I'm not condoning just learning a technique mentally. You have to apply it of course. Thats why we train.
Yes but those different set of skills are honed and advanced by each other. Also learning your set of skills under pressure is allways a benefit to the skill set and increasing the "non needed" skills still increases the needed skills so they are actually related, ie the heartrate issue where you need a low heart rate, but the best way to achieve a lowered steady heart rate under heavy pressure and adrenaline is to be in great cardiovascualr shape as well as having practice staying relaxed under the pressure of physical confrontation etc. So while the skill of running is not needed in the sniper skill set, learnign to shoot well before, during, and after a run is needed and is used in training. Also, the benefits running gives are benefits to the shooting skill set. While running alone will give you some benefits, running while training to shoot gives you the understanding and ability to perform your needed behavior under various stressful situations.mrhnau said:Art specific, as I've mentioned. One group will train differently than another. I'm not saying a sniper sits around drinking coke all day <img alt="" title="Smilie" border="0"> Of course they are out, getting in shape. I've got all respect for those guys. Just requires a different set of skills when sniping vs tactical.
Hopefully, but when attacked for no reason which happens alot (or for a reason) you may not have the option of a peacfull exit. Survival covers many different skill sets, not just defusing a situation. Your thinking only about situations that can be defussed, there are mnay that cannot. Having someone attack you who might be under the influence of mind altering drugs or simply crazy with rage or something similar is most certainly a situation of survival. There are drugs that hinder the feelings of pain and give strength....what then? When the arm lock doesn't work and you go to the break and the break just pisses him off even more? Forrest Griffin of UFC fame fought and knocked out an opponent after having his arm broken in a fight....that was just a ring fight, not even life or death. You must consider these types of situations or your "self defense" is lacking.mrhnau said:Fighting is physically confronting someone. Its quite possible to diffuse a situation w/out coming to blows. Thats survival. Hopefully you can diffuse before having to fight. Thats my point..
Well if we are seriously talking about survival...in either scenario I have pulled my concealed handgun and either defused the situation or dropped the attacker before reaching me or my family. Sure the situations may change and if I was unable to defend myself I would for sure hand up my wallet, but there comes a time that they may still attack you, at that point you better be well versed in survival fighting which would include very physical activity and endurance as well as a million other variables. I never believe there is a time to give up and accept defeat in a life or death situation. I'm not suggesting attacking someone who pulls a gun of knife on you but what if they attack you with it after you were complient?mrhnau said:2 scenarios:
1: Someone approaches you with a knife/gun, wants your wallet. Take it out. Give it to him. Go home. Cancel your credit cards.
2: Someone approaches you with a knife/gun, wants your wallet. You attack. Someone gets injured. Maybe you, maybe him, maybe both. Maybe someone dies.
I know its not always so cut and dry, but its just a different approach to solving a problem. Even in scenario 1, you may still get attacked. Life is dynamic. Just one scenario of many, I know...
Exactly my point. That is why my system is not resting on who is faster or stronger, but if skill and technique is even you better be faster and stronger. Also, the physical fitness will only serve to enhance your ability to apply these types of technqiues. Being "faster and stronger" and better skilled will even give you better odds of being victorious.mrhnau said:Of course you need to move your body around if it comes to a physical attack. However, if its simply a matter of the strongest/fastest, then you better be careful! Someone out there is in better shape than you! I'm not saying being out of shape is fine, I've said that a few times. However, if your art is based on muscle more than technique, you will inevitably come up w/ someone bigger and badder than you!
See, I warned you guys about my rants! This is exactly what I'm talking about. The workout must include techniques. We never do more than 30 pushups in a workout, many times not doing any. I would say that a test is suppoed to push you but I allways try to make my workouts harder than tests...just my personal training habits. This is the type of warmup I'm talking about doing for the 20 or 30 minutes. Sure you work into it with stretching and such, but this is the key.mrhnau said:one of the best workouts I got was when I was testing. Had to do techniques quickly and often for about 2 hours. Great workout! Not only was I applying techniques, but I was getting some cardio done. Doing 100 pushups may get you stronger, but its not (stictly speaking) the equivelant of punching. I'd much rather do a workout w/ technique than something I could easily be doing at home. It would be fun to have classes like that more often... That I would enjoy.
Carol Kaur said:Forcing myself to concentrate through my tiredness has been an exercise that IMO is quite practical. Plus, it has helped my mental discipline.