Purple Belt technique questions

[Carol]

Kyoshi, welcome to MartialTalk. It is great to see you so enthusiastic about Kenpo. However, if you have only been doing Kenpo for a half-year and are trying to pick apart purple belt techniques, the best advice I can give you is to slow down.

There are many different lineages that took flight because of Mr. Parker's efforts. Parker-Planas Kenpo, Tracy Kenpo, Sub-Level Four, Mr. Mills' AKKI, etc.

Each lineage has their differences, however they all have one very important thing in common. The techniques all build upon one another, and the insight that is gained in to kenpo is more than just where to hit the guy. The process of taking what you like and throwing out what you don't like is prevalent in some independent systems, but it is not they way the teachers under Mr. Planas go about it. Some of the independent folks that have decided to pick and choose sharply criticise Kenpo practitioners for doing things that don't work, when the reason why they don't work is because they were not taught properly to begin with.

Anyon can ask questions here...anyone at all. Ask away. And likewise, anyone can look at a person saying "Gimme this, this, this, this, and that" and in turn answer...no.

Good luck with your training. And please...slow it down. Build your foundation on rock, not quicksand.

 

[Kyoshi]

@ Carol and MattJ - Thanks for the replies

@ the rest of you. I know what eventually will be the fall of my kenpo career: the way everyone talks ********, instead of staying on the topic. Im a serious martial artist and serious instructor, i know you can't learn of the internet, but seriously - what the **** is wrong asking questions and debating.

THIS IS AN INTERNET FORUM - right? So i guess i should be allowed to ask Kenpo relevant questions, which i have.
I guess i should be allowed to ask on the internet, which this is.
And if you don't like my questions - don't answar? Simple, right? Hard, yes...?

Im going to Viking Camp in sweden and ofcourse i will debate this with real life instructors and not just "keyboard warriors" - but you know, sometimes it good to hear what others have to say, and how others like to move.

Im out of this kenpo forum
Goodbye

 

[MJS]

Wow, way to go guys making someone feel welcome to the forum. Its bad enough that we have high ranking Kenpo people here, who a) just lurk and never post, b) post from time to time, or c) just use the forum to post events and functions that they're holding. And these are people who spent years and years with Parker, and this is the best they can do? We should keep in mind, that not everyone has access to people who trained directly with the man. So, one would only think, that when questions are asked, those who have spent direct time, wouldn't hesitate to chime in. Not everyone can jump on a plane and head out to 'the source' so they use the internet, to reach out to those people, and this is the end result? How nice.

Funny how I've started many threads, on topics that are legit and important to all martial artists, not just Kenpoists, and I get a handful of replies. Yet start a thread questioning someones rank, and you get 20+ pages. LOL!

While I do agree that learning from tape, dvd, book, online, etc., isn't the best way to learn, asking questions is a form of learning. I highly doubt that every single Parker branch school is teaching like a robot, so whats the harm in asking how others do a particular technique? Yes, we can ask our teachers, but again, seeing that we're not all robots, where is the harm is asking how someone else does something?

As to the OP of this thread....welcome to the forum. I apologize that your time here has been ruined by certain comments, but I would not let that stop you from posting.

As for your questions....I'll toss in my .02 when I have a bit more time. I was just passing thru quickly this morning, on my way to run a few errands, came across this, and felt the need to comment.

Mike

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Nothing's wrong with asking questions. That's what we're here for. I do have to echo the "check out kenpotalk" suggestion as there are some serious in-depth walk throughs of many of the techniques there in the Tech of the Month section. But please, stick around here too.

As to Ingmar, guy knows his kenpo. Spent some time with him a few years back when he was visiting the states and we went through some of the techniques in detail. Opened my eyes a bit.

Guys, he asked specific questions. Lets stay on that topic please.
Thanks.

 

[MJS]

The following is just my opinion. I'm sure, seeing that we're not robots, we'll all vary with how we do these techniques.

Question1:
Twirling wings. In my curiculum, it says that my 2nd elbow should be executed int o a left figting horse (facing 9 o'clock). But won't this horse stance give us a bad bracing angle??? I prefer to do it in a neutral bow.

Keep in mind, that all of these techs. are written in the ideal phase. If everything went textbook, which it won't, then yes, how its written, will probably be how its done. Of course, as Matt said, take into consideration the movement or effect the first strike will have on the person. Just go with the flow and adapt to how the person moves. If they're out of range for a strike, just keep going and move onto something else.

Question2:
Chrushing hammer. Is this technique in family with chrashing wings #16 orange belt technique. Both steps behind with "7" and lifts head with obscure elbow, and 1st hits the groin, in chrushing hammer hits the ribs.

Appears that way.

Question3:
Captured leaves. Does elbows straight in, whereas in twirling wings the elbows are horizontal. Familiy?

Doesnt appear to be.

Question4:
Calming the storm. The last hits to the right lower ribs, is done while counterrotating or? I think the rotation is focused on the waiter check, but in everyother technique, we expect the person to move his hands, to where hes last hit - why do we have to check the hand which isn't there?

See what I said above. IMO, this is where people get too set on doing everything textbook. Its really very simple. If something isn't there, if something isn't where it 'should be', then move on. Adapt to whats happening.

Question5:
Reversing Mace. Do you move your right foot, slightly - or is it nailed to the ground, i get a much better more accurate and powerfull effect if i can move it slightly...

I'm assuming you're talking about slightly stepping out of the way of the attack? Again, go with what feels natural. Both should work.

Question6:
Obscure wing. If the guys has straight arm, how can you reach with midrange weapon elbow. This technique is done vs. someone close and with bend elbow - right?

What Matt said.

Question 7:
Raining Claw. I like splitting in this technique, but my teacher says i can't since we haven't moved ourself away from the target. My argument is mirrage of gravity to the arm and the raining claw coming simoultaneously.

Not sure what you mean by splitting. Anyways, like Matt, I'm not fond of this either.

Question 8:
Obscure sword. Is the guy dragging you back, or just holding you? Or do you pin his hand and step forward dragging him along into the obscure sword?

If he was dragging you back, IMO, trying to move forward, fighting against him, is counter productive. IMO, it works best if he's just standing there or of course, much better if he's pushing you forward.

Thanks for your time and Patience.

You're welcome.

 

[Flying Crane]

THIS IS AN INTERNET FORUM - right? So i guess i should be allowed to ask Kenpo relevant questions, which i have.
I guess i should be allowed to ask on the internet, which this is.
And if you don't like my questions - don't answar? Simple, right? Hard, yes...?

yes, and we can all give whatever answer we feel is appropriate, and if you don't like the answer, then ignore it. But don't get angry when an answer is different from what you wanted to hear. You don't own the thread. Anyone can contribute. A couple of us suggested you would do better to direct these questions to your instructor, and we gave our reasons for this. How have we been disrespectful? YOU got angry. WE did not. We just gave advice since it was asked for...

 

[Flying Crane]

Wow, way to go guys making someone feel welcome to the forum...
Mike

Mike, how have we been disrespectful? Really, reread what Doc and I posted, and I don't believe it was disrespectful or derisive. We gave an honest opinion, and we gave reasons for what we said. We simply pointed out that this guy really should direct these types of questions elsewhere, because he cannot rely on the answers he will get under these circumstances. Maybe he didn't realize that, so we pointed it out. Instead, he got offended and seems to have stormed off. Why? Because we dared suggest that he's going about it in the wrong way, instead of feeding him information on a platter that isn't going to be of any use to him?

How many threads do we see, lamenting the freefall of quality in the martial arts? We all talk about the half-baked instructors, people doing stuff that they don't understand, inflated egos, all the pitfalls that the martial arts seem to be chock full of. Well, someone trying to get his information in this manner contributes to that. So, instead of sitting back and lamenting how bad the martial arts are getting, and instead of talking smack about how we should all bust into the local McDojo and put the beat-down on the instructors (someone actually started a thread about that once, or at least made the suggestion in a thread, I can't remember exactly which, but I know I've seen it discussed here), I took the initiative of giving some guidance that actually has some meaning. I (and Doc) told the guy that there is a better way that he should go about getting his information, and in fact it's really really easy: talk to his own instructor.

So what is it that we've done wrong? He seems to have gotten offended and maybe he won't come back. I didn't intend to chase him off, and I doubt Doc did either. But all we did is give him some better advice than what he was apparently looking for, and he didn't like it.

and we all wonder why the martial arts today suck so bad. I don't feel like being an enabler.

 

[Touch Of Death]

If he was dragging you back, IMO, trying to move forward, fighting against him, is counter productive. IMO, it works best if he's just standing there or of course, much better if he's pushing you forward.



You're welcome.

You get all that borrowed force if he pulls you in.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

personally, I doubt it.

He's asking a lot of questions on specific technical aspects of the SD techs. It's almost like he's trying to learn the techs thru internet discussion. This is the kind of thing that needs hands-on work, and he should get the answers from his instructor. Like I said, at least at this stage of his development.

I'm OK assuming the instructor is not available.
Sean

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm OK assuming the instructor is not available.
Sean

He actually stated that he has asked his instructor, but he felt like asking for more information online.

even if his instructor was not available, I still think this is not the way to get the information. Asking a bunch of people online, from different lineages, who do things differently, is not likely to give him solid and useful information. He'd be better off waiting until he can see his instructor again, or at least gets a chance to work with someone else within his lineage who would be in a position to know the answers.

I actually understand his desire to ask the questions. He's new to the art and is enthusiastic. He wants to discuss it. I understand that very much. But I also believe very strongly that you cannot get the answers that you need from just anywhere. The context for the information needs to be appropriate, and I don't think this venue fits the bill in this case. Obviously he has gotten the type of answers he wanted. But I have serious doubts that the information is as useful as he thinks it is, nor that he understands it as well as he thinks he does. But he probably does not realize that.

 

[MattJ]

ToD -

You get all that borrowed force if he pulls you in.

I agree, but now you are doing a different technique, since Obscure Sword has you stepping forward on the first move.

FC -

Mike, how have we been disrespectful? Really, reread what Doc and I posted, and I don't believe it was disrespectful or derisive.

I won't presume to answer for MJS, and I didn't find your answer to be especially disrespectful, but to question if the guy even has an instructor was totally insulting. The level of detail in his questions clearly showed he has had some instruction.

because he cannot rely on the answers he will get under these circumstances...<snip>...Because we dared suggest that he's going about it in the wrong way, instead of feeding him information on a platter that isn't going to be of any use to him?

How do you know he will rely on the answers he gets here? Maybe he just wants opinions - or even a discussion. And differing answers aren't always a bad thing. Maybe they might give him another perspective on something that his instructor wasn't able to clarify to his satisfaction. I found it very useful to take kenpo concepts out of the class, and get non-kenpo perspective on them.

 

[Flying Crane]

FC

I won't presume to answer for MJS, and I didn't find your answer to be especially disrespectful,

OK, thanks.

but to question if the guy even has an instructor was totally insulting. The level of detail in his questions clearly showed he has had some instruction.

I honestly did not read any insult in Doc's post. I think he was just asking for that background and saying, hey, if you've got a teacher, he is the one you ought to be asking these questions to.

How do you know he will rely on the answers he gets here? Maybe he just wants opinions - or even a discussion.

It's in how he worded his questions. They read to me like someone asking for some serious guidance.

in the very first one, he talks about the tech using a horse, but he says he feels better in a NB. He's asking if it's OK to do it that way instead. I think he was clearly asking for help with these. That's what his instructor is for...

 

[seninoniwashi]

... and these are the days of our lives

:ultracool

 

[MJS]

You get all that borrowed force if he pulls you in.
Sean

Absolutely. However, that'll only happen if we change the technique. For the record, I'm not against making a change, if necessary. I was just commenting on the specific question that the OP asked.

But I do agree with your analogy.

 

[MJS]

Mike, how have we been disrespectful? Really, reread what Doc and I posted, and I don't believe it was disrespectful or derisive. We gave an honest opinion, and we gave reasons for what we said. We simply pointed out that this guy really should direct these types of questions elsewhere, because he cannot rely on the answers he will get under these circumstances. Maybe he didn't realize that, so we pointed it out. Instead, he got offended and seems to have stormed off. Why? Because we dared suggest that he's going about it in the wrong way, instead of feeding him information on a platter that isn't going to be of any use to him?

How many threads do we see, lamenting the freefall of quality in the martial arts? We all talk about the half-baked instructors, people doing stuff that they don't understand, inflated egos, all the pitfalls that the martial arts seem to be chock full of. Well, someone trying to get his information in this manner contributes to that. So, instead of sitting back and lamenting how bad the martial arts are getting, and instead of talking smack about how we should all bust into the local McDojo and put the beat-down on the instructors (someone actually started a thread about that once, or at least made the suggestion in a thread, I can't remember exactly which, but I know I've seen it discussed here), I took the initiative of giving some guidance that actually has some meaning. I (and Doc) told the guy that there is a better way that he should go about getting his information, and in fact it's really really easy: talk to his own instructor.

So what is it that we've done wrong? He seems to have gotten offended and maybe he won't come back. I didn't intend to chase him off, and I doubt Doc did either. But all we did is give him some better advice than what he was apparently looking for, and he didn't like it.

and we all wonder why the martial arts today suck so bad. I don't feel like being an enabler.

I'll comment in the other thread. BTW, you beat me to it. I was going to start a similar thread on that very topic.

 

[MattJ]

in the very first one, he talks about the tech using a horse, but he says he feels better in a NB. He's asking if it's OK to do it that way instead. I think he was clearly asking for help with these. That's what his instructor is for...

Sure, and I agree that a qualified instructor is the *best* way to get that help. But that doesn't mean that he can't get other opinions, right? He did make a specific point with the "bracing angle", too. To characterize him as just saying it "feels better" is not totally accurate, IMHO. His statement shows a decent understanding of height/depth/width zones, and what stances are appropriate.

As I mentioned in my response, I actually think he is technically right about the horse/NB in that (application phase) case, with the understanding (as MJS pointed out) that in the ideal phase, the horse *should* work fine.

 

[Kim Dahl]

Hey Boys and girls

I am Kyoshi Kenpo instructor, Kyoshi like to ask questions because he wants to learn oure system. and that is okay with me. He feels he has to ask the questions on this website and that is okay with med also. He can always ask me and maybe he didn`t understand the answer or I Didn`t explained good enough. But I am trying my best to help him understand what we are doing and why. He has a good background in Ma. 1 st degree in Shotokan Karate and rank in Wing Chun + he trains some others art also.

I hope he will come back to this Forum and you will treat him well

Best Kenpo Regards
Kimpo
1 st. degree Black Belt
Parker/Planas Lineage Denmark

 

[yorkshirelad]

"No offense"? Seriously? What's wrong with him asking questions here? Isn't that what this place is for?

Yes it is!! But there is a huge chasm between seeing the written word and feeling the effect of a technique done right.
It seems that the author has already begun to explore the system and has found the 'kinks' in his instructors tuition.
My advise is for him to play with the techniques and ask himself if the method taught to him makes sense in relation to the concepts and principles of EPAK. Then I suggest that he relates his findings to his instructor.
There is nothing wrong with asking technical questions, it's just that it's hard to relate the written answer to the physical form......for me anyway.

 

[MattJ]

Yes it is!! But there is a huge chasm between seeing the written word and feeling the effect of a technique done right.

Sure, but I'm not certain what that has to do with anything. A question is a question whether it's asked verbally, written or otherwise.

It seems that the author has already begun to explore the system and has found the 'kinks' in his instructors tuition.

This seems like an assumption on your part. Perhaps he just wants other opinions?

My advise is for him to play with the techniques and ask himself if the method taught to him makes sense in relation to the concepts and principles of EPAK.

It appears that is exactly what he is doing. How would he know to question the bracing angle if he hadn't felt it?

Then I suggest that he relates his findings to his instructor.

How do you know that he hasn't already?

There is nothing wrong with asking technical questions, it's just that it's hard to relate the written answer to the physical form......for me anyway.

It's not that hard, really. I have learned plenty of things from text and video. My entire understanding of kenpo was increased exponentially by reading the Infinite Insights series. It's no substitute for an instructor, but it's not impossible, either. If people don't want to respond......then don't respond. But let's not insult the guy (not directed at you, YSL). And in any case, in the response right above yours, one of his instructors said it was perfectly fine if he asked questions here.

Perhaps we can all learn from this, and remember for next time.

 

[Doc]

With all due respect, allow people to be insulted or not for themselves. Answer questions, or not for yourself. I answered as I felt appropriate, for myself. You on the other hand answered for someone else, and injected your own personal emotion and interpretations to someone else's questions. It might have been better served if you had waited to see how that person responded, and if you agreed, lend support rather then becoming an unsolicited mouthpiece for a non-existent problem.