GrandmasterP
Green Belt
Agreed , retaliation is a fair defence but pre emptively twatting somebody before they've made a move is perhaps shaky grounds for acquittal.
Punching
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chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Of course you have a choice even when throwing that kick. It's very possible to do a spinning kick and hit someone full force without falling down. Doing so shows that you lack control in the technique. That might be understandable for a 14 year old, but then since we're talking about an activity that is ostensibly a martial art (KKW Taekwondo) I'd say it still doesn't deserve to be scored, or at least merits a warning. Otherwise there is little motivation to change behavior.
Just means she should've moved out first, that's all. If you're interested in performing techniques that don't make you fall down people should become familiar with the proper angle and distance to use them. The video obviously is an example that the kick can be thrown from the inside. But it's also an exmaple that, at least in this instance (and I'd hazard to say many others) the people who do this kick in WTF matches are building some pretty bad habits, just like not keeping their guard up.
I know, I know holding yur hands down is really part of a great defensive strategy. I'm sure there will be people who will argue the same is true for losing your balance and falling down (I kid! Kind of.) If the WTF is going to allow people to fall down and not penalize them then this is a behavior that they are fostering (and in some sense you could say it's something they value). It will continue because there's no reason to change. The only problem in my eyes is that it's a "strategy" used by people who practice a martial art with the same name as the one I do. Sigh.
It takes skill to do so, sure. But not as much as being able to move out from the clinch enough to execute it properly while still defending yourself from a counterattack. Look, the girl did win her match. That's great for her. But she did it using what seems to be developing as the norm for WTF matches, viz. kick and then fall without worrying about the consequences.
Pax,
Chris
OP
OP
ATC
Senior Master
Of course it is. No one is saying that it is not.
Not always an option, When someone is moving in or pushing forward you simply can't just move out to do your tech as you may move out into a technique and be hit or KO'd yourself.
Again, it all depends on the situation. To me it seems like many on here are simply use to kicking bags or none dynamic moving targets, they are use to kicking things that don't move or kick back. Most don't compete and don't have others across from them trying to full force knock their heads off. On the other hand there are others that do but they also use hands to the head so once inside they don't have to or don't choose to kick to the head as the hands are a better option. So again that situation has an option that prevents them from even trying or thinking of some of the kicks to the head that WTF people will try or use. To simply say that they don't, should not have, could not have, would not have means nothing until you try and see. She did not fall on purpose. She threw and committed to a kick on a person that was moving in at non kicking distance, made that kick land and fell in the process due to not being able to get her feet under her do to the distance of the opponent and the movement of the opponent. Again I am not saying that people don't intentionally fall as I have already stated that they do, and on even simpler kicks as to not get countered or for whatever reason and yes this is a problem and I don't like it either. But to simply say that every kick is that way in live dynamic combat is also just as ridiculous.
This.
Yes, it is very hypocritical and I've states so many times before. But then TKD is predominately a children's martial art as it keeps the doors of the dojang open. And we need to put the carrot before the child's eyes with lots of pretty colored belts and competition (which has nothing to do with true martial arts) because it keeps them interested and the money flowing. No, it isn't a popular opinion. Yes, I'll probably get grief over it. No, my position won't change. Yes, kids do get hurt in this 'game'. No, it won't stop the practice. Yes, it should be criminalized. No, it isn't necessary for true mastery of the martial arts. And yes, that's just the way I feel about it.
Bingo!
GrandmasterP said:
It is completely defensible in a court of law. One is under no obligation to get punched before defending themselves. Pre-fight indicators, if articulated accurately and correctly, are a viable defense. I use pre-emptive striking/grabbing/locking all the time. It isn't arbitrary, it is calculated on officer/subject factors, pre-fight indicators to include body language, body posture, body positioning and verbal interaction i.e. intent and ability.
As an example, if someone has the ability to do me harm (they are close to me or have the ability to move close to me), if they have expressed their intent to do me harm (either verbally or non-verbally with body language such as clenching fists, positioning themselves offensively, breathing heavily etc), and if de-escalation/escape/evasion is not a viable option or a consideration due to the circumstances....then a pre-emptive strike and/or other technique such as a lock/throw etc will be forth-coming directly.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Well, actually, you said: "But for jump back spinning kicks like in the video sometimes you have no option but to fall as you totally sell out when committed to the kick."
My comment was in reference to this statement, which seemed to indicate the opposite of what I said. IMNSHO, it's totally possible not to "have no option but to fall" even when striking at full power. If you do fall when doing so it's a matter of simply choosing the wrong technique at the wrong time. In a game with no penalty for falling down it's not a problem. But it's also quite possible to avoid doing that.
Working angles and retreating are part of the game. You'll see lots of ITF fighters, for example, attacking while backing up and hitting their opponents as they try to chase them. But saying it's "not always an option" is a truism. Nothing is always an option. My point was that if you want to do the technique correctly you'll have to have ample room for it. If you don't you do something else. Now, in a WTF match it's no big deal because you can fall down. So you don't have to do the technique correctly (and for the purpose of this conversation I define doing a technique correctly as including not just the execution of the kick but also recovery of one's balance so you can continue fighting).
But your statement is interesting. It illustrates the fact that the WTF has made controlling the distance and maintaining one's balance, and less important than they once were. That's their perogative, of course, it's just an interesting observation.
I don't think my statement depends on the situation. It really is harder to back up, avoid a counter attack, and execute a reverse hooking kick (or what have you) at proper distance and full force than it does to kick and fall down because you're too close and off balance. I don't know that that is debateable.
As for how many people don't practice against a dynamic target of never engage an opponent who doesn't kick back, I'd say none. People might not put on a hogu and do a WTF tournament but I don't know anyone here who has indicated they train in a manner you indicate. Maybe there are some who never free spar at all, but I don't know of any.
I made my comments within the context of the WTF rules and didn't say anyone shouldn't do anything, except when I said the girl should've moved back first in order to not fall down. And that was in reply to your comment that she basically couldn't not fall down. Without doing anything different, yes. But of course she could've prevented it if need be. But I specifically pointed out more than once that under the WTF rules it's irrelevant whether you fall down or not. I think it's stupid and an unnecessary development by the WTF but, again, they didn't ask my opinion
The video that was posted illustrates both the punching rules the WTF has and the allowance for falling down, which are two things that many people think are silly, bad, or whatever. I was unimpressed with the punching that was shown (and pointed out that the fostering of a low guard causing one's head to be dangerously open was shown, too) and that saying people can kick and fall down without penalty will result in ... people kicking and falling down. I'm sure the girl in the video is very skillful, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to critique things that are posted in a thread for people to see (and ostensibly critique)
I'm not really sure what you're saying here. I didn't say the girl fell on purpose. Nor did I say every kick in a WTF match results in people falling down (though I've seen some that were pretty close). I made a few comments about the WTF making it more likely people will fall down when they kick because, well, they did. I'd also say that saying she started kicking before her opponent began moving in isn't accurate. She launched her first kick, reset, and then began kicking after the other girl began closing. Maybe she thought she was fast enough to hit her before she got too close. But it's irrelevant because she can fall down without penalty.
My only point was that if you don't want to do that you need to better control the distance
Pax,
Chris
OP
OP
ATC
Senior Master
My statement that you highlighted in bold has one key word in it that make it very valid and that is "sometimes". I do not speak in absolutes. Any sort of combat is dynamic and ever changing. The person across from you is trying to do the same things you are and more than not what you want is not going to work or look like what you practice. Even boxers that don't kick fall down. Most of the things you stated work well in the movies but in any ring of any style not so simple. Just because you want to control the distance does not mean that you will at all time or even at most times. That is why in every combat sport they clench very easily. You want to hit someone but they move in and clinch, just as sometimes they move out of your range.Well, actually, you said: "But for jump back spinning kicks like in the video sometimes you have no option but to fall as you totally sell out when committed to the kick."
My comment was in reference to this statement, which seemed to indicate the opposite of what I said. IMNSHO, it's totally possible not to "have no option but to fall" even when striking at full power. If you do fall when doing so it's a matter of simply choosing the wrong technique at the wrong time. In a game with no penalty for falling down it's not a problem. But it's also quite possible to avoid doing that.
Working angles and retreating are part of the game. You'll see lots of ITF fighters, for example, attacking while backing up and hitting their opponents as they try to chase them. But saying it's "not always an option" is a truism. Nothing is always an option. My point was that if you want to do the technique correctly you'll have to have ample room for it. If you don't you do something else. Now, in a WTF match it's no big deal because you can fall down. So you don't have to do the technique correctly (and for the purpose of this conversation I define doing a technique correctly as including not just the execution of the kick but also recovery of one's balance so you can continue fighting).
But your statement is interesting. It illustrates the fact that the WTF has made controlling the distance and maintaining one's balance, and less important than they once were. That's their perogative, of course, it's just an interesting observation.
I don't think my statement depends on the situation. It really is harder to back up, avoid a counter attack, and execute a reverse hooking kick (or what have you) at proper distance and full force than it does to kick and fall down because you're too close and off balance. I don't know that that is debateable.
As for how many people don't practice against a dynamic target of never engage an opponent who doesn't kick back, I'd say none. People might not put on a hogu and do a WTF tournament but I don't know anyone here who has indicated they train in a manner you indicate. Maybe there are some who never free spar at all, but I don't know of any.
I made my comments within the context of the WTF rules and didn't say anyone shouldn't do anything, except when I said the girl should've moved back first in order to not fall down. And that was in reply to your comment that she basically couldn't not fall down. Without doing anything different, yes. But of course she could've prevented it if need be. But I specifically pointed out more than once that under the WTF rules it's irrelevant whether you fall down or not. I think it's stupid and an unnecessary development by the WTF but, again, they didn't ask my opinion
The video that was posted illustrates both the punching rules the WTF has and the allowance for falling down, which are two things that many people think are silly, bad, or whatever. I was unimpressed with the punching that was shown (and pointed out that the fostering of a low guard causing one's head to be dangerously open was shown, too) and that saying people can kick and fall down without penalty will result in ... people kicking and falling down. I'm sure the girl in the video is very skillful, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to critique things that are posted in a thread for people to see (and ostensibly critique)
I'm not really sure what you're saying here. I didn't say the girl fell on purpose. Nor did I say every kick in a WTF match results in people falling down (though I've seen some that were pretty close). I made a few comments about the WTF making it more likely people will fall down when they kick because, well, they did. I'd also say that saying she started kicking before her opponent began moving in isn't accurate. She launched her first kick, reset, and then began kicking after the other girl began closing. Maybe she thought she was fast enough to hit her before she got too close. But it's irrelevant because she can fall down without penalty.
My only point was that if you don't want to do that you need to better control the distance
Pax,
Chris
For you if your opponent is always at your perfect distance waiting to be hit then great for you. I have yet seen that to be the case. Maybe against someone that has no or very little experience.
You can say angles all you want, angles are just a tool but by no means are the end all be all controlling factor. I have seen many people angle straight into attacks as you can't always read everything correctly. Plus angles can and do get anticipated as well.
I had an instructor once that tried to train people as if everything he told them would work if they just did it. He taught as if the person you would be up against would just stand there. I always found that interesting.
I simply have one question for you. Have you ever done WTF rule set sparring? If so have you ever done it with someone of National Championship caliber?
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Yes, I know. But I figured the context of my post made it quite clear that I was also speaking in a similar manner with the caveat that if you wanted to do that kick without falling down you would have to make sure you gave yourself the proper room to do it in. If you couldn't do that you should pick a more appropriate tool. If you didn't want to fall down. If you do, or simply don't care, then it doesn't matter all that much.
Well, sure. Which is why I also talked about controlling the distance. But there are tons of variables that need to be taken into account when sparring. If you want to say that there are exceptions to everything (which there may be) then you're just saying you don't want to atlk about things, or people can't critique the video you posted for some reason.
I don't know if I'd call that "interesting."
Yes.
Well, they weren't at nationals, they were local and state tournaments. I have no idea if anyone there were going on to nationals or not. There were some people who were very good and some who weren't and some inbetween.
But, really, that's like asking a doctor who has diagnosed you with cancer if he has ever had the disease or if an economist who is talking about what would result in more widespread wealth if he's ever been poor himself. It's interesting but maybe not as relevant as you might think.
Pax,
Chris
One thing, this video highlights is something i see in other tkd videos that show significant punching is the following. As a student of boxing and mma, i noticed that ALOT of tkd are dropping there hands after the punches. There straight punches look great, but they fail to keep there hands in there guard after the punch. They often drop to the waist. I can still see my old boxing coach correcting me when my hands dropped below my shoulders... Its not just these girls, but i see it alot in videos of tkd fighters punching in competition. Im not sure why this is, cuase while the art is alot of kicking, surely when hand tech practice comes up, proper technique is stressed by the instructor. (i would hope)
Can you guys shed any light on this? Is it just fighters unnacustomed to fighting with there hands and pulling what would amount to newb mistakes in boxing or is there something else im missing? Are they dropping there hands to there hips on purpose?
Can you guys shed any light on this? Is it just fighters unnacustomed to fighting with there hands and pulling what would amount to newb mistakes in boxing or is there something else im missing? Are they dropping there hands to there hips on purpose?
OP
OP
ATC
Senior Master
Well the sport has no face punching at all, so if you are at punching range there is not a need to protect the head from the hands. But you need to protect from a kick and the best way to defend a kick to the body or the head is to block or prevent the kick from coming up. A lot of people even in the martial arts world practice blocking kicks at the point of contact. Kick coming to the head put your hands up and block the kick before it is about to hit the head. Well that hurts and most times you really can't stop the kick from hitting your head but simply slow it down. A good WTF teacher will teach that the best way to not get hit in the head with a kick is to first move, 2nd is to block the kick by preventing it from getting up. The Axe and Round kick are the most commonly used kicks in WTF rules sparring, If I can block your kick before it gets started (at about waist level) but I also don't run the risk of the kick slipping past my guard or pushing my guard into myself. The rules dictate how you fight. I have seen many try to come out in a boxing stance with hands held high get their bodies beat down only to have the hands drop anyway and then get KO'd or hit in the head. Also the more forward stance leaves you open for cut and back kicks to the mid section.
ATC im not talking about a boxer stance bro. Im talking about the Low to mid lvl TKD guard. Alot of TKD people regardless of org, are dropping there hands not down to there low guard, but toward and often past there waist after punching. If you have a low guard, fine, bring your hands back to your guard, but no matter the style, there is no call to completely drop your hands down toward your knees as is often the case. They did it frequently in that video and i see it frequently in videos of ITF sparring. Im not advocating a high above shoulders guard, becuase your right your body is exposed, but keeping your hands near your upper chest solar plexus and there abouts would be a great middle ground. Since i have started mma, i have noticed my guard lowering. I only switch to my boxer guard when im against punchy people.
Now here is one thing you need to be aware of. Just becuase i (when i say I i mean, people with a high boxerish guard) have a high guard, does not mean i cant protect my body effectively. Here is a youtube video showing the inside fighting "block" used in boxing and mma. Here it is to the right side.
Here it is on the left side.
He mentions hooks, and close range, but it only takes slight modification to the movements to block straight attacks. On a side note, its not that far removed from the Muay thai elbow/knee block. Only thing missing is the knee. I have used it against kicks and punchs during heavy sparring to good effect.
Now here is one thing you need to be aware of. Just becuase i (when i say I i mean, people with a high boxerish guard) have a high guard, does not mean i cant protect my body effectively. Here is a youtube video showing the inside fighting "block" used in boxing and mma. Here it is to the right side.
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OP
OP
ATC
Senior Master
Yes I got what you were saying and answered that. I just added the stance as an also. But the first part of my reply should have answered you. If not then to summarize It is best suited for the rule set of the sport to have your hands lower.
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Then its foolish. You fight like you train, and if you consistently train with your hand at your knees, then guess what when a real fight happens, guess were your hands will be.. There are far more punch's in real street fighting, and a good guy must consider the proper level of responding force towards a given attack. Using your kicks is not always appropriate, especialy when up close, you had better have your guard up and deflections ready.
How can one say that training with your hands down, wont affect your ability to defend your self? Your hands are important and had better be employed. How can you instinctively do that, if your always training with your sport guard? Muscle memory is important and how you train it will influence your self defense. So always having your hands down is a bad thing as you are building muscle memory that says ok fight time hands down...
Now i know why my mma coach quit wtf tkd after his 2nd dan...
How can one say that training with your hands down, wont affect your ability to defend your self? Your hands are important and had better be employed. How can you instinctively do that, if your always training with your sport guard? Muscle memory is important and how you train it will influence your self defense. So always having your hands down is a bad thing as you are building muscle memory that says ok fight time hands down...
Now i know why my mma coach quit wtf tkd after his 2nd dan...
Cyriacus
Senior Master
What about the Boxers and MMA fighters who fight with their hands down?
On this BBS you are in the majority....your opinion is very clear...it is also clear that you are not open to changing your mind...thus making you the final word...all discussion closed....
QUOTE=Kong Soo Do;1534267]This.
Yes, it is very hypocritical and I've states so many times before. But then TKD is predominately a children's martial art as it keeps the doors of the dojang open. And we need to put the carrot before the child's eyes with lots of pretty colored belts and competition (which has nothing to do with true martial arts) because it keeps them interested and the money flowing. No, it isn't a popular opinion. Yes, I'll probably get grief over it. No, my position won't change. Yes, kids do get hurt in this 'game'. No, it won't stop the practice. Yes, it should be criminalized. No, it isn't necessary for true mastery of the martial arts. And yes, that's just the way I feel about it.[/QUOTE]
QUOTE=Kong Soo Do;1534267]This.
Yes, it is very hypocritical and I've states so many times before. But then TKD is predominately a children's martial art as it keeps the doors of the dojang open. And we need to put the carrot before the child's eyes with lots of pretty colored belts and competition (which has nothing to do with true martial arts) because it keeps them interested and the money flowing. No, it isn't a popular opinion. Yes, I'll probably get grief over it. No, my position won't change. Yes, kids do get hurt in this 'game'. No, it won't stop the practice. Yes, it should be criminalized. No, it isn't necessary for true mastery of the martial arts. And yes, that's just the way I feel about it.[/QUOTE]
Cyracius every one of my boxing and mma coach's teach that under no cicumstance is my guard to be down. Now my mma guard and my boxing only guard are different. Boxing guard above shoulders, mma below but that is still a high guard. There is lots of boxing and mma guards, none of them at the hips. Except for certain stratagies that only get employed for short periods, such as purposely dangling one hand down to invite body shots, setting up your planned counter attack. That stance is not how one would fight the whole fight............
Gorilla, prove me wrong then sir. Prove to me, that fighting with your hands down by your **** is a perfectly viable way of defending against punch's and grabs and clinch fighting.. I want MAJOR proof, videos, ect of a WTF'er with his hands by his ****, defending punch's grabs and throws and clinching..
It isn't and I have never said that it was! A WTF fighter under that rule set would not fight with his hands down if he had any sense...we train In Boxing Judo karate and Tkd ...we employ guards in each one...
Competition does affect "true martial arts". If the stance you use during a regular dojo class and the one you sparr with, there is a disconnect. You can not get around muscle memory. Im sorry its a fact. I know my startle responce, and it is my high boxer guard. Its my muscle memory. Now as i get through the OODA loop, i can then orient my stance to better address the situation at hand.
Part of learning self defense, is learning how your body reacts to adrenalin. Fine motor skills go away, you rely on gross motor movements. My first few times dealing with the "adrenalin dump" as its called, i found my self nearly unable to think. Sparring is vitaly important to acclimating to the enviroment of a high stress situation. I agree that WTF Foot tag, does in deed prepare for that. The problem is, that if the wtf practitioner is interested in self defense, and the only sparring they get in class is wtf style, then they will be in essence training 2 different styles of Martial arts, while only reinforcing the 1.
Can you truely switch from one fight stance(Self defense non wtf sparring) to olympic sparring stance and still remain effective? Do you practice your non olympic fight stance regularly and with any kind pressure? If attacked on the street or startled which stace do you fall into naturaly while in the throws of the OODA loop?
Part of learning self defense, is learning how your body reacts to adrenalin. Fine motor skills go away, you rely on gross motor movements. My first few times dealing with the "adrenalin dump" as its called, i found my self nearly unable to think. Sparring is vitaly important to acclimating to the enviroment of a high stress situation. I agree that WTF Foot tag, does in deed prepare for that. The problem is, that if the wtf practitioner is interested in self defense, and the only sparring they get in class is wtf style, then they will be in essence training 2 different styles of Martial arts, while only reinforcing the 1.
Can you truely switch from one fight stance(Self defense non wtf sparring) to olympic sparring stance and still remain effective? Do you practice your non olympic fight stance regularly and with any kind pressure? If attacked on the street or startled which stace do you fall into naturaly while in the throws of the OODA loop?
Gorilla, what im saying is, the stance you spend the most time in is the stance you will default to when the crud hits the fan. How much time, in a regular WTF training session is spent using regular fight stance and olympic stance? How do you go about building muscle memory with the stance you dont sparr with? I have yet to see any of you wtf people address that.
