Proud To Be An American

[michaeledward]

Au-contraire, mon frere. But I think, as was pointed out earlier, there were al-Quaeda people in Iraq before we went in.

Please define the pronoun - 'people' - used in your statement above. When you can clearly define what you are saying, it will easily be disproved.

Your continued belief in this falsehood is poison. All the thoughts that follow are fruits from that poison tree, and thus arrived at through error.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

There were a few AQ people in Iraq.

Most of them were in the northern part.

You know, the part controlled buy the anti Hussein Kurds.

Jeff

 

[heretic888]

Au-contraire, mon frere. But I think, as was pointed out earlier, there were al-Quaeda people in Iraq before we went in.

Correction. It was claimed there was an Al Queda person in Iraq before we went in.

And that claim, by the way, has been completely debunked. The individual in question was corroborated to be somewhere in western Europe at the time.

By my, and our President's definition, you are either with us, or against us. Nations that harbor terrorists are against us.

Does that include nations that aren't actually harboring terrorists but our national leaders say they are to create a false rationale for war??

I'll waive my right to respond to further dillution of my original post. But dream on if you must.

I think not. That is precisely the scenario you laid out in your post: that it is acceptable to send our Armed Forces into Iraq so as to fight them "over there", rather than "over here".

The rationale being that they function essentially as human shields or human distractors to militant terrorists.

Funny, I would have included the multiple calls for holy war as a primary factor. Maybe you missed that one.

Nope, I just don't believe in dumbing down important discussions with platitudes and catch phrases.

But as for my prior comment, I'd rather have their base in Iraq, than my back yard. You of course have the right to your own opinion.

Correct. I, unlike you it seems, believe the proliferation and growth of Al Aqueda is a bad thing.

How do you eat an elephant?

In other words, you will avoid the issue by invoking an irrelevant non-sequiter. Bravo.

In a narrow view, I suppose it might.

Yes, it is a "narrow view" to suppose that the further loss of military life and expenditure of American finances on yet another foolhardy war is reckless.

And the rest, as they say, is........irrelevent. Circumstantial? Out on a limb?? Conspiracy? Well, I like good drama too, so can't fault ya there.

In other words, you will disregard important information in the discussion by tossing ad hominems and straw men into the mix. Nice.

This is why I hate having conversations with ideologues. They have the "truth" and no matter what all the evidence and facts say, the "truth" is the "truth".

Good grief.

 

[heretic888]

My wife and I are often at odds....

The implication that Hussein and bin Laden were somehow allies or "in bed" with each other (so to speak) is utterly ludicrous in this context.

 

[michaeledward]

In the mountains of the Kurdish area of Iraq - protected under the umbrella of the coalition No Fly Zone - was a training camp for Ansar Al-Islam.

Ansar al Islam modeled itself after al Qaeda, but it was an independent organization.

Zarqawi did reside and train at Ansar al Islam camps.

Only after the United States invasion, Zarqawi changed the name of the organization to 'al Qaeda in Iraq' - a very good marketing stragety, that inflated his importance, and served to distract American's from the sectarian violence taking place under our occupation.

Additionally, the CIA provided credible target information to the Department of Defense and White House prior to the invasion that went unused.

 

[Elayna]

Well I see we are all going around in circels like what usually happens in this debate.
I support the war yes. Do I think violence is always the best way, no. But I do know there are some "kids on the block" who dont listen to their mommies if you know what I mean. All they know is to stop picking on other kids when they get their butt kicked. So when neccessary and if peace talks dont work after a given amount of time then I say yes, do what needs to be done.
I dont think it is the Muslim religion that is at fault. Just like we have catholic neo nazis that hate the U.S. and want to control everything and everyone. Its and Idea people. Not the religion, not the country. The Idea.

And here is my big point to you all. Screw the war. Screw the government. Its about us supporting the men and women who are fighting no matter if you agree with them or not. I dont see you out their risking your life. (and if you are more power to you). I hear of children writing the men and women of uniform horrible letters because their teachers have told them its the right thing to do. COME ON PEOPLE. Shame on you!!
If the war ends fine. If it doesnt fine.
All I want to see is the U.S. coming together in some form. Even during the world wars not everyone in the U.S. agreed. I mean going to war was one of the biggest issues of that time. But you know what, they came together they supported and the won. After Pearl Harbor was bombed, they didnt squabble or think hmmm maybe the japanese were in the right. To this day they dont question...all they know is this...
They killed brothers, sisters, husbands, fathers, sons, and so on. Shouldnt have done it so now your dead too.
Terrorist cells are not just in one country. So we decided to start in Iraq, big whoopie. Honestly I see it as the luck of the draw. We could have started in Iran, or Syria, or China , or whatever. But thats not the point.
And if you cant get over your own ego to support people who are willing to give their lives shame on you!
Even if you dont support why, say it once, nicely then get over it. You wont bring them back. Because the military you join on your own. They werent drafted. They asked to be there.
Be an American. Be Proud. Say BOOOOYAHHHHH.

And yes, I am glad the fight is over there. I dont want it over here where my child, friends and family could be hurt. I dont want the fight anywhere honestly, but sometimes you have no choice.
And as I said before, you let one bully get away with it and they will all get away with it. And we all know of how judges will make an example out of someone who doesnt neccessarily deserve it, well that might be the case here. I dont think so but its something to think about.

I dont have the fact of 9/11 as far as the report goes. And honestly I wouldnt even know how much of that is true or how much is written from someone who was paid off, so I go by something I can trust. My eyes, my feelings and the thoughts and opinions of those I love. My friends and family. From my parents and so on.

And you know what, if they wanted to move into Iraq for oil, whatever. As long as someone who had a part in the plane crashes of 9/11 are held responsible. So what if oil is part of the agenda, Oil is always said to be part of the agenda. Dont think its true, but oh well.

So boys and girls, i just say to you. Be an american. Stop bashing america. If you dont like it, do something to help instead of sitting around complaining. Dont start a civil war or a bloody riot, but do something. I mean it is america after all.

 

[Carol]

So boys and girls, i just say to you. Be an american. Stop bashing america. If you dont like it, do something to help instead of sitting around complaining. Dont start a civil war or a bloody riot, but do something. I mean it is america after all.

Can I get an AMEN!

On that happy note, I'm off to be a productive member of society and earn some taxable income.

 

[terryl965]

Well here is my two cents the war is a bunch of crap and our government sucks.

With that being said I'm an American and I will stand behind my fellow men and women who are fighting this war.

I will also stand behind our government for they are representing our men and women who fight this battle.

I will end with this America is not about everyone agreeing it is about everyone being Americans.

GOD BLESS AMERICA

Terry Lee Stoker

 

[Ping898]

Out of curiousity, when people ask you about your national background, how many poeple say or even think to say they are American?
My first thought it usually, that I am 1/2 French and 1/2 Polish despite that both sides of my family have been here for many generations. It usually doesn't occur to me to say until well after the fact, that I am American.

 

[matt.m]

Afganistan yes, Iraq no. I am a medically discharged Sgt. of Marines. I have unwavering support for those in uniform. I have one question, just one.

If it has been doctrine since the 80's that if a plane is in illegal airspace and it is heading to a known target where mass destruction can happen then that aircraft is to be shot out of the sky. Why did this not happen.

Look, I have seen combat on 3 different continents and 1 island. Sorry, if you never fired a round in anger don't say anything. I know first hand that what happens in reality and what you and I as a general public are allowed to hear are totally different animals.

Remember Desert Storm/Gulf War part I was fought with the Eisenhower firing its 2 missiles right? That is all we saw. Sorry, if you believe it then you are niave.

 

[heretic888]

Well I see we are all going around in circels like what usually happens in this debate.
I support the war yes. Do I think violence is always the best way, no. But I do know there are some "kids on the block" who dont listen to their mommies if you know what I mean. All they know is to stop picking on other kids when they get their butt kicked. So when neccessary and if peace talks dont work after a given amount of time then I say yes, do what needs to be done.
I dont think it is the Muslim religion that is at fault. Just like we have catholic neo nazis that hate the U.S. and want to control everything and everyone. Its and Idea people. Not the religion, not the country. The Idea.

And here is my big point to you all. Screw the war. Screw the government. Its about us supporting the men and women who are fighting no matter if you agree with them or not. I dont see you out their risking your life. (and if you are more power to you). I hear of children writing the men and women of uniform horrible letters because their teachers have told them its the right thing to do. COME ON PEOPLE. Shame on you!!
If the war ends fine. If it doesnt fine.
All I want to see is the U.S. coming together in some form. Even during the world wars not everyone in the U.S. agreed. I mean going to war was one of the biggest issues of that time. But you know what, they came together they supported and the won. After Pearl Harbor was bombed, they didnt squabble or think hmmm maybe the japanese were in the right. To this day they dont question...all they know is this...
They killed brothers, sisters, husbands, fathers, sons, and so on. Shouldnt have done it so now your dead too.
Terrorist cells are not just in one country. So we decided to start in Iraq, big whoopie. Honestly I see it as the luck of the draw. We could have started in Iran, or Syria, or China , or whatever. But thats not the point.
And if you cant get over your own ego to support people who are willing to give their lives shame on you!
Even if you dont support why, say it once, nicely then get over it. You wont bring them back. Because the military you join on your own. They werent drafted. They asked to be there.
Be an American. Be Proud. Say BOOOOYAHHHHH.

And yes, I am glad the fight is over there. I dont want it over here where my child, friends and family could be hurt. I dont want the fight anywhere honestly, but sometimes you have no choice.
And as I said before, you let one bully get away with it and they will all get away with it. And we all know of how judges will make an example out of someone who doesnt neccessarily deserve it, well that might be the case here. I dont think so but its something to think about.

I dont have the fact of 9/11 as far as the report goes. And honestly I wouldnt even know how much of that is true or how much is written from someone who was paid off, so I go by something I can trust. My eyes, my feelings and the thoughts and opinions of those I love. My friends and family. From my parents and so on.

And you know what, if they wanted to move into Iraq for oil, whatever. As long as someone who had a part in the plane crashes of 9/11 are held responsible. So what if oil is part of the agenda, Oil is always said to be part of the agenda. Dont think its true, but oh well.

So boys and girls, i just say to you. Be an american. Stop bashing america. If you dont like it, do something to help instead of sitting around complaining. Dont start a civil war or a bloody riot, but do something. I mean it is america after all.

And therein lays the crux of the matter.

Namely, "supporting the war" is held to be synonymous with "supporting the troops". Inversely, "opposing the war" is held to be synonymous with "bashing America". Both of these are faulty lines of reasoning.

The rationale behind this entire series of argumentation is, quite simply, that those that disagree with your political beliefs are held to be traitorous. Instead of attacking the logic or the evidence of one's opponents, the neo-conservtive opts to impugn their patriotism. This is a despicable tactic.

I see again that you are invoking 9/11. I will reiterate my previous point: Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11. None of the hijackers or their leaders came from or were harbored in Iraq under Saddam Hussein. Hussein was a prick of unimaginable cruelty, but he had nothing to do with what happened to us on September 11, 2001.

If you really want to go after nation-states that were involved in 9/11, then countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran are much more logical choices. Iraq, however, is more along the lines of a distraction on our campaign against Al Queda.

I believe America will "come together" when we have a reasonable and compromising centrist in the Oval Office. That is not George W. Bush. I hope it will be John McCain. While I disagree with Senator McCain's position on the war, I can respect him as a leader. I cannot say the same for President Bush.

As for your remark about "doing something", I plan to do something. Three weeks from now, I plan to use my right to vote to help get the *******s that endorse this partisanship out of office. God bless America.

Laterz.

 

[heretic888]

With that being said I'm an American and I will stand behind my fellow men and women who are fighting this war.

I will also stand behind our government for they are representing our men and women who fight this battle.

I agree with the first statement. I disagree with the second.

I do not believe our government is presently representing the best interests of the men and women serving in the Armed Forces, especially the executive branch. I am very much in agreement with Senator McCain and a number of retired Army generals that Donald Rumsfeld is incompetent as a Secretary of Defense and is largely to blame to what is happening to our troops at present.

I also plan on helping to vote out of office the congressmen that are supporting these destructive policies.

 

[heretic888]

Out of curiousity, when people ask you about your national background, how many poeple say or even think to say they are American?
My first thought it usually, that I am 1/2 French and 1/2 Polish despite that both sides of my family have been here for many generations. It usually doesn't occur to me to say until well after the fact, that I am American.

I have always said I am American when asked such questions.

 

[terryl965]

I agree with the first statement. I disagree with the second.

I do not believe our government is presently representing the best interests of the men and women serving in the Armed Forces, especially the executive branch. I am very much in agreement with Senator McCain and a number of retired Army generals that Donald Rumsfeld is incompetent as a Secretary of Defense and is largely to blame to what is happening to our troops at present.

I also plan on helping to vote out of office the congressmen that are supporting these destructive policies.

heretic888 no where did I say our government was representing our troops best interest, but I will stand behind my government for the people of this great land put those people in charge. I do not always agree but I will stand up for what our country is doing and I will always be backing all those men and women who fight for this great land.
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Terry

 

[Elayna]

Terry...

You said it wonderfully. Thats all that needs to be for america.


Heretic....

We could go on and on about this forever. I could use your points against you. But you know what, thats not how I feel. I support Bush because I think he has done the best that he could with what he was given. I didnt support clinton because he was a cheating butthole. And well he was just dumb.
I will support a democrat if one comes around that I feel is competent. I dont support every repbulican. I support who I feel is a competent leader, and right now thats Bush, because he is our only leader. Right now. Now when the elections come around I will be voting as well. Thank God for that right. We shall see who I vote for because I dont even know yet. But I do know this, people change after they are voted in, so we shall see.
You or I can prove if the war in Iraq has NOTHING to do with 9/11. To me it sounds a little conspiracy theorist like, but to you it is truth so I shall agree to disagree.


All I am asking is that everyone who agrees or disagree with the war, the U.S. or whatever, just support the men and women and the idea of freedom.

We arent always told the truth, the world isnt perfect. So you have to make your own decisions. But just because someone disagrees with you doesnt mean you have to insult them, humiliate them or drag them down, or kill them. And thats what the middle east needs to learn. Because if they just knew that it wouldnt have happened in the first place. But it did.

The U.S. is falling apart people. The U.S. was the greatest country ever. What our forefathers fought for was something to be proud of. People stood together against a tyrant king. We became a United People. We had our differences hell yea. When do we not.? But they overcame those and saw the need for the greater good. So why arent we seeing that now??

Anyways, I could go on forever. Agree or not. Be supportive and do something other then complaining is all I ask.

To me you are an American if you were born here,or your parents are american, or if you pay taxes here and have a legal greecard. Oh and if you dont believe in death to america. LOL

 

[heretic888]

heretic888 no where did I say our government was representing our troops best interest, but I will stand behind my government for the people of this great land put those people in charge. I do not always agree but I will stand up for what our country is doing....

Sorry, but I just cannot agree with this line of reasoning.

"My country right or wrong" is precisely the problem that I see in so much of American politics today. In a proto-Orwellian nightmare of sorts, serious discussion and dissent of the status quo is despised. Conformity and compliance with those in power is rewarded.

This is the exact opposite of what our country is supposed to stand for. The American Ideal is Freedom For All, not Freedom So Long As You Agree With The President. This is an insult to every citizen in our country.

It is no wonder that old-line conservatives like John Dean, author of Conservatives Without Conscience, will say with a straight face (as he recently did on The Daily Show) that the country is moving toward a proto-fascism.

Laterz.

 

[Flying Crane]

Terry...

You said it wonderfully. Thats all that needs to be for america.

No. As patriotic Americans, we have a DUTY to stand up and loudly and strongly oppose the policies of our government when it is wrong, and when it is enacting policies that are despicable both at home and abroad. That is what being an American is about. Not blind obedience to the government. It is terrifically important to speak up loud and clear when our government is doing things that we oppose.

Simply going along with our government, and thinking that that is what is means to be a patriotic American, is what allows our government to get away with horrible actions, and will lead to fascism. It is the DUTY of every patriotic American to hold our government in check, and demand that it remain answerable and accountable to the People who put it in power. It is not the other way around.

 

[heretic888]

Terry...

You said it wonderfully. Thats all that needs to be for america.


Heretic....

We could go on and on about this forever. I could use your points against you. But you know what, thats not how I feel. I support Bush because I think he has done the best that he could with what he was given. I didnt support clinton because he was a cheating butthole. And well he was just dumb.
I will support a democrat if one comes around that I feel is competent. I dont support every repbulican. I support who I feel is a competent leader, and right now thats Bush, because he is our only leader. Right now. Now when the elections come around I will be voting as well. Thank God for that right. We shall see who I vote for because I dont even know yet. But I do know this, people change after they are voted in, so we shall see.
You or I can prove if the war in Iraq has NOTHING to do with 9/11. To me it sounds a little conspiracy theorist like, but to you it is truth so I shall agree to disagree.


All I am asking is that everyone who agrees or disagree with the war, the U.S. or whatever, just support the men and women and the idea of freedom.

We arent always told the truth, the world isnt perfect. So you have to make your own decisions. But just because someone disagrees with you doesnt mean you have to insult them, humiliate them or drag them down, or kill them. And thats what the middle east needs to learn. Because if they just knew that it wouldnt have happened in the first place. But it did.

The U.S. is falling apart people. The U.S. was the greatest country ever. What our forefathers fought for was something to be proud of. People stood together against a tyrant king. We became a United People. We had our differences hell yea. When do we not.? But they overcame those and saw the need for the greater good. So why arent we seeing that now??

Anyways, I could go on forever. Agree or not. Be supportive and do something other then complaining is all I ask.

To me you are an American if you were born here,or your parents are american, or if you pay taxes here and have a legal greecard. Oh and if you dont believe in death to america. LOL

I'm sorry to break this to you, Elayna, but our country is falling apart because of that "great leader" (and his associated cohorts) you think so highly of.

The center of gravity of political discussion in this country has shifted to the right. Moderates and centrists are now held to be traitorous liberals. Anybody that does not tow the party line is looked upon with suspicious eyes. This is insane.

As to your question regarding why we aren't seeing a united people right now, it is precisely because the leadership currently in office are political extremists out of touch with the pulse of the American people. George W. Bush is a far cry from George Washington.

I'm sorry, but whenever I see arguments like this I can't help but spot the glaring subtext to the discussion: "Do Not Question the Government".

Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[heretic888]

No. As patriotic Americans, we have a DUTY to stand up and loudly and strongly oppose the policies of our government when it is wrong, and when it is enacting policies that are despicable both at home and abroad. That is what being an American is about. Not blind obedience to the government. It is terrifically important to speak up loud and clear when our government is doing things that we oppose.

Simply going along with our government, and thinking that that is what is means to be a patriotic American, is what allows our government to get away with horrible actions, and will lead to fascism. It is the DUTY of every patriotic American to hold our government in check, and demand that it remain answerable and accountable to the People who put it in power. It is not the other way around.

Well said, Flying Crane!!

 

[Cryozombie]

"Do Not Question the Government".

Didnt you get that memo? Somthing about not questioning them or winding up in the secret prisons that dont exist?