Proud To Be An American

[Flying Crane]

Even assuming that we should not have gone into Iraq (I think we should have gone into Iran instead), we are there, and the policies we've implemented made a hash of things. We would be doing ourselves, the Iraqi people, and the world a huge mis-service if we just pulled out without putting things right. We went in there and it's now our responsibility.

If we pulled out now, we'd just be sending our young men and women there again a few years down the line. No amount of argumentative tactics will change that fact.

Jeff

Yah, I know, it sucks. We made a huge mess of the place, and we have an ethical obligation to fix it. I don't know if we can, however.

 

[michaeledward]

Even assuming that we should not have gone into Iraq (I think we should have gone into Iran instead), we are there, and the policies we've implemented made a hash of things. We would be doing ourselves, the Iraqi people, and the world a huge mis-service if we just pulled out without putting things right. We went in there and it's now our responsibility.

If we pulled out now, we'd just be sending our young men and women there again a few years down the line. No amount of argumentative tactics will change that fact.

Jeff

JeffJ,

Please look at Mr. Cheney's description of what "Putting things Right" means to him, and by proxy, the Administration. How long is it going to take to reach that description? Remember that 2.28 American Service members have died each day we have been in Iraq. How many more days will it be to 'Put things right'? How many more soldiers?

This is looking at the world as it is. I am not trying to be argumentative. I am trying to save the lives of American soldiers; 2.28 of them each day.

Lastly, I am not certain your assumption that we would have to go back a few years down the line is correct. Our soldiers left North Korea, have we gone back in a few years later? Our soldiers left North Vietnam, have we gone back in a few years later?

Mike

 

[Flying Crane]

I personally think that we have so angered that portion of the world and made ourselves so hated that no matter what we might try to do, we will be met with tremendous resistance. I question our ability to get anything done, no matter what. The "cleanup" has to be done by others, because our very presence there is like poison.

That is how big a mess I believe this to be.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Lastly, I am not certain your assumption that we would have to go back a few years down the line is correct. Our soldiers left North Korea, have we gone back in a few years later? Our soldiers left North Vietnam, have we gone back in a few years later?

I do think we'd end up having to go back, in part because of arguments you yourself have put forward. The neo-jihadists there ARE using it as a training ground. It would become a safe haven for them to base themselves out of much like Afghanistan was. North Korea and Viet Nam did not have aspirations of taking on the U.S. anywhere outside of their own regions. These fanatics, most of whom have only read the Sword Verses of the Koran, do.

Plus, we made the mess so we should clean it up. It's become a matter of responsibility.

Jeff

 

[michaeledward]

I do think we'd end up having to go back, in part because of arguments you yourself have put forward. The neo-jihadists there ARE using it as a training ground. It would become a safe haven for them to base themselves out of much like Afghanistan was. North Korea and Viet Nam did not have aspirations of taking on the U.S. anywhere outside of their own regions. These fanatics, most of whom have only read the Sword Verses of the Koran, do.

Plus, we made the mess so we should clean it up. It's become a matter of responsibility.

Jeff

I think the neo-jihadists are a tiny minority of those in Iraq creating difficulties. The inability to discern between sectarian violence, civil war, and neo-jihadists, is making it difficult to discuss what is going on in Iraq and to establish concrete metrics and plans. Without clear language, goals will never be met.

Most of the people in Iraq who are attacking and killing their neighbors do not have ambitions of taking over the U.S. Instead, they are seeking vengence for wrongs done by others (Shia attacks on Sunni's) or are afraid of the coming genocide (Sunni attacks on Shia). To assert that all those committing violence in Iraq have aspirations of 'taking on the U.S. is an example of confusing a civil war with a neo-jihadist.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I think the neo-jihadists are a tiny minority of those in Iraq creating difficulties. The inability to discern between sectarian violence, civil war, and neo-jihadists, is making it difficult to discuss what is going on in Iraq and to establish concrete metrics and plans. Without clear language, goals will never be met.

Most of the people in Iraq who are attacking and killing their neighbors do not have ambitions of taking over the U.S. Instead, they are seeking vengence for wrongs done by others (Shia attacks on Sunni's) or are afraid of the coming genocide (Sunni attacks on Shia). To assert that all those committing violence in Iraq have aspirations of 'taking on the U.S. is an example of confusing a civil war with a neo-jihadist.

So because of the confusion, we should just leave the mess we've made to sort itself out?

And I never said anything about "taking over" the U.S.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Oh, and that environment is a perfect harbor for the neo-jihadists.

Jeff

 

[michaeledward]

So because of the confusion, we should just leave the mess we've made to sort itself out?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

And I never said anything about "taking over" the U.S.

You did say:

North Korea and Viet Nam did not have aspirations of taking on the U.S. anywhere outside of their own regions. These fanatics, most of whom have only read the Sword Verses of the Koran, do.​

I said:

ambitions of taking over the U.S.​

and​

aspirations of 'taking on the U.S.​

The first clause is unfortunate, I should have used 'on' in both sentences.

Oh, and that environment is a perfect harbor for the neo-jihadists.

There are 25 million people in Iraq. I think they would have something to say about whether the neo-jihadists would have a perfect harbor in their country.


There are courses of action that can be taken that are not the simple characature painted by President Bush, Vice President Cheney, and RNC Chair Melhmann.

Each day we remain - 2.28 American soldiers are dying. There were no Weapons of Mass Destruction, there were no programs, there was no connection between Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda, there was no imminent threat.

I often tell my daughter --- Be Harmless, Not Helpful (Taken from 7th Heaven television show) --- In Iraq today, the American presence is neither Helpful or Harmless. The best course of action is to STOP. This does not mean leave a vacuum, but it does mean 'leave'.

Perhaps this is veering too far away from Elayna's topic. Again, I will try and distance myself from this thread.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Again, I will try and distance myself from this thread

Just as an aside, this phrase always makes me think that someone is holding a gun to the posters head, telling them they'll shoot if they don't post. Can't help but smile at it.

Once again let me iterate, this has nothing to do with the discussion.

Jeff

 

[tradrockrat]

Out of curiousity, when people ask you about your national background, how many poeple say or even think to say they are American?

First time every time. If they want to know my ethnicity, it's Irish /Italian, but I am American first and always. Teddy was right about that.

 

[Elayna]

Hmm, Have you guys gotten off topic??? YES!!

This thread was not supposed to be about if the war is right or wrong. Or if Bush is a good president, or any of the things you guys have posted on here. You guys have not seen the point of my posts.
I have tried my best to tell you what my goal is here. I have put forth a challenge but I fear you guys have just skipped past it and not seen through your anger and your OWN views.
I have my views and let me say something to those of you who like putting forth fact, reviews, reports, news and so on.
I know the fact very well. I was the top debater in my college. I know how to get the facts, do the research and so on. But even though the "public" may know the facts how often do you see people actually regarding or doing what the "facts" or the "truth" tell them to do??
I mean parents tell their kids...oh babies come from a stork, and until they go into sex ed thats "their truth". So use that.
Your truth is your truth and to you I am nothing but an uneducated person that cant see the light through the trees. And you know what, thats ok.
But where that because rather childish is when you cant step aside from that and listen, and try to consider my point of view.

And to say that you are not willing to find common ground with me because my ideas are alien to you is well....just...wrong. To me that is a very single minded person. That is behavior that should have been long gone hundreds of years ago.
I put this too you....
If the white northerns of the civil war era could find common ground with the black slaves of the south, and change the history of a nation and its people, we can now.
Cant we??

I will try as hard as I can to listen to you, to really inspect your point of view and to see if there is something we can agree on. That is my word to all of you. Because I firmly believe that even though it may be small, and maybe only an inch we all have something called "common ground". It will be hard to find sometimes, but it is there.
It may be as small as what color we like. But all it takes is something small. The red woods grew from only 1 tiny seed into something strong and beautiful.
I may not always agree with you and you will not always agree with me and that is ok. I have the right to tell you my opinion and my view. Does not mean I disregard yours, it just means I am telling you where I stand. As I would expect you to do. But then there must be a time where we stop "arguing" or "debating" and start asking....
"what do we agree on?"

That is my CHALLENGE TO YOU ALL.
State what you disagree with, then at the end of your post state how you will try to agree with someone. I dont care what you use. Even if its just something silly as I like chocolate. Just something to show you understand and you are listening with an open mind and heart.

I know there may be alot of things some of you think arent "logical" or able to happen. But, what you can imagine can happen.
Once they didnt think the world was round, and people were thrown in jail for challenging what they knew to be "true"....but now here we are.

So will you step up to the challenge and evolve as people and intellectuals as we are always doing? Or will you choose to stay in your comfort zone?

I ask this to you all. Lets see if YOU are willing to step up, and take the leap.
I am....

Good Luck to you all.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, I am an American, plain and simple. I don't have pride in that, neither do I have shame in that. Since being an American is a condition into which I was born, it is not an accomplishment for me, so Pride and Shame have no place in my feelings about it. Pride and Shame are feelings that, in my opinion, are more appropriate in regards to accomplishments, or decisions that one makes, and the such. Being an American is simply who I am.

I am, however, tremendously ashamed of the leaders of this country.

Sorry, I hadn't ready the rest of your post: I like dark chocolate, 72% or higher is best.

 

[Elayna]

FlyingC....

Ohhhhh you sure do know your chocolate. YUMMMM....I know what that would really go well with, but this is a family site. Hehehehe.

I do have to agree with several parts of your post. I believe that just to be proud because your country is America is somewhat wrong. Even though I am proud of that. But I do agree with your sentiment in what to have pride in.

I am more dissapointed then ashamed of our government as I feel they have lost the true meaning of representing their people and their country.
I believe that Bush has lost some of that through this whole ordeal.
I dont think he was always that way, but I can imagine with the job that he has no matter who you are you would end up loosing a piece of yourself you know.
I know I couldnt do it. Deal with all the politics and the things they say about you and so on. So I give him props for that.


I really enjoyed your post Flying Crane, thank you for your input.

 

[Don Roley]

Even assuming that we should not have gone into Iraq (I think we should have gone into Iran instead), we are there, and the policies we've implemented made a hash of things. We would be doing ourselves, the Iraqi people, and the world a huge mis-service if we just pulled out without putting things right. We went in there and it's now our responsibility.

If we pulled out now, we'd just be sending our young men and women there again a few years down the line. No amount of argumentative tactics will change that fact.

In the spirit of Elayna's challenge of,

That is my CHALLENGE TO YOU ALL.
State what you disagree with, then at the end of your post state how you will try to agree with someone. I dont care what you use. Even if its just something silly as I like chocolate. Just something to show you understand and you are listening with an open mind and heart.

I will say that I disagree with your statement that we should have gone into Iran first. At the time there was still a leader there trying to reform things. I always prefer to try something other than violence if I can.

But I will try to find agreement with you in your statement that even if you think the war is wrong, pulling out would be a mistake. I think you understate the problem.

We can see how the fighting in Lebanon was stopped because the entire world wanted Isreal to stop and Isreal listned to them. But if you look at the streets of not only Lebanon, but other parts of the Arab world, people are crediting Hamas with a great victory over Isreal.

There is no way to think that the guys fighing us in Iraq would not use our pulling out to convince the world that they beat us. Osama Bin Laden would be considered the victor, and the goverments in the region would know that if they wanted to survive, they would have to back the horse that is willing to go for the long haul. The goverments that paid off the militants in return for them leaving them alone have stopped their support for now. That would change and the militants would be flush with cash. The goverments themselves would know that we really do not have the stomach to stick it out and would stop all reform.

It might save lives in the short run, like if we had just pulled back to the states after Pearl Harbor was attacked, but in the long run we would lose and even more Americans would die.

So you think that going into Iraq was a mistake and I disagree. But we both agree that pulling out would be a mistake if looked at in the long term. So we agree on that, eh?:cheers:

 

[Elayna]

Thanks you very much Don for stepping up to the plate.

My salute to you.

I hope that many more will join in.

 

[Elayna]

Hmmmm....?????


I wonder why everyone is so quite after my challenge???
*shrug*.


I hope you all will join in. It can make a difference even if it doesnt seem like it. At least give it a chance. Please dont be afraid of change. Its a good thing.

I know one common ground we all have.
We all want Freedom. Everyone everywhere. Right?
I guess where we begin to disagree is how to accomplish that. LOL rather ironic if you ask me.

I believe I may start a sperate thread on this.
But I hope this is something for you all to address and to use my challenge in.


Dont be shy now.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

In the spirit of Elayna's challenge of,



I will say that I disagree with your statement that we should have gone into Iran first. At the time there was still a leader there trying to reform things. I always prefer to try something other than violence if I can.

But I will try to find agreement with you in your statement that even if you think the war is wrong, pulling out would be a mistake. I think you understate the problem.

We can see how the fighting in Lebanon was stopped because the entire world wanted Isreal to stop and Isreal listned to them. But if you look at the streets of not only Lebanon, but other parts of the Arab world, people are crediting Hamas with a great victory over Isreal.

There is no way to think that the guys fighing us in Iraq would not use our pulling out to convince the world that they beat us. Osama Bin Laden would be considered the victor, and the goverments in the region would know that if they wanted to survive, they would have to back the horse that is willing to go for the long haul. The goverments that paid off the militants in return for them leaving them alone have stopped their support for now. That would change and the militants would be flush with cash. The goverments themselves would know that we really do not have the stomach to stick it out and would stop all reform.

It might save lives in the short run, like if we had just pulled back to the states after Pearl Harbor was attacked, but in the long run we would lose and even more Americans would die.

So you think that going into Iraq was a mistake and I disagree. But we both agree that pulling out would be a mistake if looked at in the long term. So we agree on that, eh?:cheers:

Well said Don.

I agree with almost everything you've said in that.

In fact, 'bout the only thing I disagree with you on is when you said I understated that pulling out of Iraq would present more problems than it solves. But that's probably just a semantic argument.

Jeff