Properly identify what you teach and learn.

[Flying Crane]

What in the world are you talking about? You are way off the path my friend.

No, think you don’t communicate as clearly as you think. But that is simply my opinion.

 

[Jared Traveler]

No, think you don’t communicate as clearly as you think. But that is simply my opinion.

If you have a genuine question regarding what I think, I would love to clarity. I've had enough enemies for a lifetime, I'm not looking to make one of you.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

If you have a genuine question regarding what I think, I would love to clarity. I've had enough enemies for a lifetime, I'm not looking to make one of you.

Lmaooooo

This forum bro. Did I come to the right place for exchanging knowledge?

 

[drop bear]

You can't even properly respond to my last post, or to other posts where I've basically said the same thing to you ad nauseum.

You are intellectually dishonest, argumentative, and want to die on the "MMA or bah" hill.

@Jared Traveler may or may not want to indulge in this, but I'm not going to waste anymore time with you discussing this subject.

So no then.

 

[drop bear]

Which part?

So you now have a classic issue. One guy says one thing. The other guy says the other thing.

And nobody really knows which is the right thing.

I wouldn't have a clue. I have never been car jacked. I don't know anyone who has.

How would either of you know what happens or what is most likely?

 

[Jared Traveler]

No, think you don’t communicate as clearly as you think. But that is simply my opinion.

Let me clarify, I've had time to go back and look over the posts in more detail. While any idiot "can" give up a vehicle(I'm using this term "idiot" to appease someone else on this thread), that is not an indication of what smart or stupid people "will" do under an extreme amount of acute stress.

Hyper arousal is very real, and seeing a gun pointed at you is a lot different than touching gloves in a ring. It's far more serious and stressful. My point is that training, stress inoculation, and little details are important, or at least can be in this type of dynamic situation. So yes, any idiot can give up a vehicle hypothetically, but as a trainer, you want to sweat the details to increase you students odds of success. hope that clarifies any incongruent statements on my part?

 

[Jared Traveler]

So you now have a classic issue. One guy says one thing. The other guy says the other thing.

And nobody really knows which is the right thing.

I wouldn't have a clue. I have never been car jacked. I don't know anyone who has.

How would either of you know what happens or what is most likely?

There are always many voices. It all comes down to which voice you trust. It can be challenging, I totally understand that.

 

[Flying Crane]

Let me clarify, I've had time to go back and look over the posts in more detail. While any idiot "can" give up a vehicle(I'm using this term "idiot" to appease someone else on this thread), that is not an indication of what smart or stupid people "will" do under an extreme amount of acute stress.

Hyper arousal is very real, and seeing a gun pointed at you is a lot different than touching gloves in a ring. It's far more serious and stressful. My point is that training, stress inoculation, and little details are important, or at least can be in this type of dynamic situation. So yes, any idiot can give up a vehicle hypothetically, but as a trainer, you want to sweat the details to increase you students odds of success. hope that clarifies any incongruent statements on my part?

Thank you for that clarification and in particular the first paragraph. That was the missing part for me.

 

[Jared Traveler]

By the way, it was not my intention to discuss carjackings in detail, it was given as one example. There seems to be a lot of energy digging up this one scenario. The point being an "expert" in say combatives does not mean you automatically understand "personal security" or how to properly teach "self-defense." The same way teaching judo does not prepare you to teach Karate. The differences are important to understand in my opinion. And actually help you become a better instructor if you take the time to sort through them.

 

[drop bear]

There are always many voices. It all comes down to which voice you trust. It can be challenging, I totally understand that.

Now remember when you were discussing the junk the police were training?

Why do you think they allowed that?

 

[drop bear]

By the way, it was not my intention to discuss carjackings in detail, it was given as one example. There seems to be a lot of energy digging up this one scenario. The point being an "expert" in say combatives does not mean you automatically understand "personal security" or how to properly teach "self-defense." The same way teaching judo does not prepare you to teach Karate. The differences are important to understand in my opinion. And actually help you become a better instructor if you take the time to sort through them.

So you should understand the subject you teach. And not try to wing it from say anecdotes and stuff.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Let me clarify, I've had time to go back and look over the posts in more detail. While any idiot "can" give up a vehicle(I'm using this term "idiot" to appease someone else on this thread), that is not an indication of what smart or stupid people "will" do under an extreme amount of acute stress.

Hyper arousal is very real, and seeing a gun pointed at you is a lot different than touching gloves in a ring. It's far more serious and stressful. My point is that training, stress inoculation, and little details are important, or at least can be in this type of dynamic situation. So yes, any idiot can give up a vehicle hypothetically, but as a trainer, you want to sweat the details to increase you students odds of success. hope that clarifies any incongruent statements on my part?

To me, in this situation the small details aren't what's important. The big ones are-don't be a threat to the person, and give the people with the guns what they want. That's true for carjacking (the example) but a lot of other similar scenarios people go through).

The issue is, as you pointed out, high stress situations cause people to panic and not follow what they were taught, so teaching them the small details of how to move/the exact words to use is not necessarily a good method of training. In other words, panicking/high adrenaline can evoke irrational response, so teaching the rational brain what to do is not super helpful.

So to help someone learn not to panic/act irrationally in high stress situations, rather than teach someone small details and have them go through contrived, completely safe/stress-free scenarios, they need to learn how to handle stress. Beyond mindfulness exercises (which can work but are not the best for the kind of acute stress mentioned here, without experiencing using them in acutely stressful situations), the only realistic solution is to put people into high-stress situations. There are a couple ways to do this:

1. Go out in a bad neighborhood, acting in a way that's going to cause confrontations (or take a job like a bouncer or LEO that's going to cause confrontations) and learn by doing. This has the risk of getting seriously injured, killed, or ending up in jail, among other things but if you survive would probably be the most effective.

2. Do things that raise your own stress level. For some that might be cliff diving or base jumping, for others it might be sticking your hand in a hornets nest, or locking yourself in a sensory deprivation room. These will do a good job of getting you used to panicking and thinking it through in relatively safe situations, but aren't something you can learn in a seminar/class as everyone has different things that would elicit that reaction, so it would have to be done on a more personal level. They also don't teach any martial art/relevant skills.

3. Competitive fighting. You've got the risk of bodily injury, and almost everyone gets adrenaline, a high amount of stress, and some panic when they first enter a competitive fight. Obviously not the full level of stress, as it's not a specific phobia and you know you won't die, but it teaches you to think calmly in a high-stress situation, while also teaching you martial skills, and can be taught in a class.

 

[Jared Traveler]

So you should understand the subject you teach. And not try to wing it from say anecdotes and stuff.

Forgive me, I'm not smart enough to determine if this is another attempt to diminish me?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

By the way, it was not my intention to discuss carjackings in detail, it was given as one example. There seems to be a lot of energy digging up this one scenario. The point being an "expert" in say combatives does not mean you automatically understand "personal security" or how to properly teach "self-defense." The same way teaching judo does not prepare you to teach Karate. The differences are important to understand in my opinion. And actually help you become a better instructor if you take the time to sort through them.

Just to clarify, do you consider yourself an expert in the realms of self defense you mentioned in your first post? Do you teach those?

If so, you should be able to follow fully and discuss one specific scenario and everything that goes with it. If not, then that changes expectations as well in regards to the discussion (think about discussing for instance how to perform a takedown with a white belt vs head instructor of a school).

 

[Jared Traveler]

To me, in this situation the small details aren't what's important. The big ones are-don't be a threat to the person, and give the people with the guns what they want. That's true for carjacking (the example) but a lot of other similar scenarios people go through).

The issue is, as you pointed out, high stress situations cause people to panic and not follow what they were taught, so teaching them the small details of how to move/the exact words to use is not necessarily a good method of training. In other words, panicking/high adrenaline can evoke irrational response, so teaching the rational brain what to do is not super helpful.

So to help someone learn not to panic/act irrationally in high stress situations, rather than teach someone small details and have them go through contrived, completely safe/stress-free scenarios, they need to learn how to handle stress. Beyond mindfulness exercises (which can work but are not the best for the kind of acute stress mentioned here, without experiencing using them in acutely stressful situations), the only realistic solution is to put people into high-stress situations. There are a couple ways to do this:

1. Go out in a bad neighborhood, acting in a way that's going to cause confrontations (or take a job like a bouncer or LEO that's going to cause confrontations) and learn by doing. This has the risk of getting seriously injured, killed, or ending up in jail, among other things but if you survive would probably be the most effective.

2. Do things that raise your own stress level. For some that might be cliff diving or base jumping, for others it might be sticking your hand in a hornets nest, or locking yourself in a sensory deprivation room. These will do a good job of getting you used to panicking and thinking it through in relatively safe situations, but aren't something you can learn in a seminar/class as everyone has different things that would elicit that reaction, so it would have to be done on a more personal level. They also don't teach any martial art/relevant skills.

3. Competitive fighting. You've got the risk of bodily injury, and almost everyone gets adrenaline, a high amount of stress, and some panic when they first enter a competitive fight. Obviously not the full level of stress, as it's not a specific phobia and you know you won't die, but it teaches you to think calmly in a high-stress situation, while also teaching you martial skills, and can be taught in a class.

Great thoughts. I think if you shrink that down, you might say.... Grappling is a great way to stay calm and thinking under stress. One key factor in high stress situations is continuing to think and solve problems, vs a step by step guide to self protection.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Great thoughts. I think if you shrink that down, you might say.... Grappling is a great way to stay calm and thinking under stress. One key factor in high stress situations is continuing to think and solve problems, vs a step by step guide to self protection.

Yup. I have a tendency to over-explain, that's definitely a simpler version of it. I'd replace grappling through with any high-pressure martial art/martial competition. So for instance not tai chi or aikido, but grappling, judo, boxing, certain karate tournaments could all qualify.

 

[drop bear]

Forgive me, I'm not smart enough to determine if this is another attempt to diminish me?

You can only be diminished if you allow yourself to be.

See self defence or protection or martial arts isn't about image.

It is about what is doable and provable.

That is properly identifying what you teach and learn.

 

[Jared Traveler]

You can only be diminished if you allow yourself to be.

See self defence or protection or martial arts isn't about image.

It is about what is doable and provable.

That is properly identifying what you teach and learn.

I get it, you are the "man."

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I get it, you are the "man."

We need a gigachad meme—but with mma gloves and shorts on.

 

[drop bear]

I get it, you are the "man."

Not about image. Not about the man and not about being upset.