Proper sequence of events?

[Kong Soo Do]

I'd like to open up a topic for practitioners of martial arts in general and get their opinion. As an example, we have a martial art that we'll call 'X'. It is a very popular martial art. It is practiced around the world and has a sport side as well as a self-defense side, though they are not necessarily taught together. Martial art 'X' has over the years developed into multiple arts that use the same name. As a further clarification, they use the same name, but may have different grandmasters, somewhat different lineages, different forms, different drill and even different philosophies.

Now lets say one of the organizations for martial arts 'X' is making a big push to get all instructors and practitioners of martial art 'X' under their control/banner, even the ones that don't follow the curriculum of martial art 'X'. Lets say that this organization, through multiple instructors offers certification through this organization, regardless of whether the curriculum is known, regardless of whether there is any desire to learn the curriculum or the same technical level that would normally be required, and regardless of whether or not any test is adminstered for competency.

How does this sound to you?

To take it further, lets say it is a suggested strategy of this organzation to first get everyone in ALL the branches of martial art 'X' under their banner/control and then the next step is to then get them all on the same page as far as technical ability. To me, this is putting the cart before the horse.

But, how does this sound to you?

Now, to again take it further, if the first step is to get EVERYBODY in martial art 'X' under their banner/control and the next step is to get everyone on the same page technically...how will that step ever be accomplished when instructors are currently giving out rank certification in this organization to people that not only don't know the organizations curriculem but have stated they don't want to know it, in otherwords, the instructors are knowly giving our rank certifications to people they know aren't going to learn the organizations curriculum? And these people that don't know or don't care now have the ability to promote people into this organzation that have never learned and will never learn the organizations curriculum. I don't see how this final step is going to be realistically accomplished, or even if it is really a serious goal in the first place.

So, how does this sound to you?

I have my own opinion(s), but would like to see what others think. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Thank you.

 

[MJS]

I'd like to open up a topic for practitioners of martial arts in general and get their opinion. As an example, we have a martial art that we'll call 'X'. It is a very popular martial art. It is practiced around the world and has a sport side as well as a self-defense side, though they are not necessarily taught together. Martial art 'X' has over the years developed into multiple arts that use the same name. As a further clarification, they use the same name, but may have different grandmasters, somewhat different lineages, different forms, different drill and even different philosophies.

Just so I'm reading this right, it'd be like having various branched of Kenpo. You had Ed Parker. He had taught various people. Some of them today are 9th and 10th degrees, or GMs. You have Larry Tatum, Huk Planas, Joe Palanzo. All 10th degrees, but a different lineage, although they all trained under Parker. The forms, techs, etc, are all, for the most part, the same, though I'm sure there're differences.

Now lets say one of the organizations for martial arts 'X' is making a big push to get all instructors and practitioners of martial art 'X' under their control/banner, even the ones that don't follow the curriculum of martial art 'X'. Lets say that this organization, through multiple instructors offers certification through this organization, regardless of whether the curriculum is known, regardless of whether there is any desire to learn the curriculum or the same technical level that would normally be required, and regardless of whether or not any test is adminstered for competency.

How does this sound to you?

Sounds messed up. Again, if I'm reading right, why would anyone want to get a cert. under someone who they never trained with of if they dont know the material?? Sounds like some of that honorary crap that people do. Nope, if someone said to me, "Mike, for all that you've done in the martial arts, I'm going to award you a 5th dan in TKD." I'd turn it down. Never did TKD, so why the hell would I want to get recognition? LOL.

To take it further, lets say it is a suggested strategy of this organzation to first get everyone in ALL the branches of martial art 'X' under their banner/control and then the next step is to then get them all on the same page as far as technical ability. To me, this is putting the cart before the horse.

But, how does this sound to you?

Yeah, you're right. Still sounds messed up.

Now, to again take it further, if the first step is to get EVERYBODY in martial art 'X' under their banner/control and the next step is to get everyone on the same page technically...how will that step ever be accomplished when instructors are currently giving out rank certification in this organization to people that not only don't know the organizations curriculem but have stated they don't want to know it, in otherwords, the instructors are knowly giving our rank certifications to people they know aren't going to learn the organizations curriculum? And these people that don't know or don't care now have the ability to promote people into this organzation that have never learned and will never learn the organizations curriculum. I don't see how this final step is going to be realistically accomplished, or even if it is really a serious goal in the first place.

So, how does this sound to you?

Nope, still messed up.

I have my own opinion(s), but would like to see what others think. Perhaps I'm missing something.

Thank you.

I hope I gave you the answers you were looking for.

 

[shihansmurf]

I don't see how a certificate in any system that I haven't earned would be good for something other than as a Charmin replacement.

Politics suck, hope this situation that you described doesn't impact you too greatly.

Mark

 

[Flying Crane]

How is it that this big organiziation is not simply ignored by those not connected to it?

 

[puunui]

How is it that this big organiziation is not simply ignored by those not connected to it?

Exactly.

 

[Buka]

The word that worries me is "control". And big organizations sure do like to have a whole bootload of it. Martial Art X usually has someone who desperately wants to be in control of all the X factors.

Sometimes it can be a good thing. And sometimes - screw it, just train.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Sounds like what kukiwon (sp?) is doing from what I have heard. Me, I'd not accept the certificate, get back to teaching, and probably not think twice about it.

 

[puunui]

The word that worries me is "control".

Try and read that hypothetical closely. Assuming arguendo that there are "no standards", how much "control" do you think such an organization is exerting over its members? To me, "control" means they are telling you what to do and what to teach and how to teach it, according to strict standards.

 

[puunui]

Me, I'd not accept the certificate, get back to teaching, and probably not think twice about it.

I met your instructor once at a Hapkido function a couple of years ago. I didn't realize he was so tall.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Try and read that hypothetical closely. Assuming arguendo that there are "no standards", how much "control" do you think such an organization is exerting over its members? To me, "control" means they are telling you what to do and what to teach and how to teach it, according to strict standards.

Very good observation, precisely one of the points. If martial art 'X' is allowing instructors to bring people into the organization that don't know the curriculum of martial art 'X', nor is it their intention to learn, there can be no control. There can be no stage in which technical standards are implemented across the board. I think a legitimate observation would be that those that don't know the curriculum or martial art 'X', nor have any desire to learn it are simply collecting wall candy. Secondly, those instructors that are allowing these people in are more interested in quantity than they are quality and by that fact are defeating/preventing the last stage of technical proficiency.

 

[punisher73]

Bringing in and certifying people who don't know or weren't brought up in the system is just a way to make money...period.

It isn't about standards, it is about getting more members for more money. Look at how many "Krav Maga" schools suddenly popped up. You took a short class that basically taught you the first level of material and then were now "Certified" as a Krav Maga instructor to train others in it. Others have done it as well, just KM seems to be the most recent. It is a good way to get more franchise schools out there and get more money back to your organization.

 

[puunui]

Very good observation, precisely one of the points. If martial art 'X' is allowing instructors to bring people into the organization that don't know the curriculum of martial art 'X', nor is it their intention to learn, there can be no control. There can be no stage in which technical standards are implemented across the board. I think a legitimate observation would be that those that don't know the curriculum or martial art 'X', nor have any desire to learn it are simply collecting wall candy. Secondly, those instructors that are allowing these people in are more interested in quantity than they are quality and by that fact are defeating/preventing the last stage of technical proficiency.

You can't see it, but I can. For example, I see much more standardization today in taekwondo than 35 40 years ago. Back in the 70s in hawaii, taekwondo was all over the place and we had every kind of form and every kind of uniform from every kind of style not to mention every kind of certification showing up to our tournaments. Today, everyone wears the same uniform, everyone does the same forms, which started off by giving everyone the same certification.

 

[puunui]

Bringing in and certifying people who don't know or weren't brought up in the system is just a way to make money...period.

What if you were brought up in the system but for whatever reason your instructor chose to give you his own signed certificates instead of the ones he got from the official world body? See any problem with the world body assisting those students with getting official certification? That is the main problem for taekwondo in the united states for example, people learning the kukkiwon style, practicing the kukkiwon curriculum, competing at USAT and WTF events, but not having official kukkiwon certification.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

You can't see it, but I can. For example, I see much more standardization today in taekwondo than 35 40 years ago. Back in the 70s in hawaii, taekwondo was all over the place and we had every kind of form and every kind of uniform from every kind of style not to mention every kind of certification showing up to our tournaments. Today, everyone wears the same uniform, everyone does the same forms, which started off by giving everyone the same certification.

Well, I prefered to keep martial art 'X' generic for the sake of the discussion instead of mentioning a specific art and a specific organization. However, I'm glad that you see some standardizaton but it isn't because certification was handed out to people that had no intention with conforming to the standards of the organization. That, by its very nature, goes against any attempt at standardization. Which of course lends to the conclusion that it is simply a money-making objective as the end result.

What if you were brought up in the system but for whatever reason your instructor chose to give you his own signed certificates instead of the ones he got from the official world body?

Ah, but there is no 'official world body'. There is an official Korean body. There is a rather large one outside of Korea. And there are several well known entities besides those two. If there was an official 'world' body, then the others would not be needed. But, and I think you'll agree with me on this Glenn, ego, arrogance and pride on the parts of some seniors has caused not only a rift in what organizaiton should lead, but also central philosophies and techniques.

Lets take just a moment to have a conversation Glenn. I don't agree with you on several points. The feeling is undoubtably mutual. That's fine as you never know when a learning experience may come about for either of us. With this in mind, I see nothing wrong with you being an advocate for the KKW. That is your right and you obviously feel strongly about the organization. Again, no problem with that or your right and zeal to promote it. My instructor is a KKW master and I have two other individuals that I know that are KKW masters. If it was my desire, I could easily have gone up to 6th Dan through the KKW. Not because my buddies would have 'given' it too me, but because that is my TKD rank and I have the ability and knowledge necessary to obtain such a grading. Be-that-as-it-may, I see the worth and value of such a certification as having decreased over the years. Many factors have gone into this decrease such as their special testing and instructors giving rank certification to those that don't know the curriculum nor intend to learn it. To me, and this is my opinion, it devalues the organization despite what they are trying to achieve. As a TKD BB, I would be much more interested in the KKW if they had standards that were written in stone. Standards that weren't deviated from due to racial favoritism or discrimination. Standards that were based upon a persons skills, experience and knowledge of TKD.

I don't think that is too much to ask.

However, while I'm wishing, I'd like to see a clear distinction between sport TKD and non-sport TKD with a separate certification for each. Even if from the same organization. That is a personal thought, not looking for an arguement on which is better or if they are one in the same. That's for some other thread.

 

[puunui]

Well, I prefered to keep martial art 'X' generic for the sake of the discussion instead of mentioning a specific art and a specific organization. However, I'm glad that you see some standardizaton but it isn't because certification was handed out to people that had no intention with conforming to the standards of the organization. That, by its very nature, goes against any attempt at standardization. Which of course lends to the conclusion that it is simply a money-making objective as the end result.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Ah, but there is no 'official world body'. There is an official Korean body. There is a rather large one outside of Korea. And there are several well known entities besides those two. If there was an official 'world' body, then the others would not be needed. But, and I think you'll agree with me on this Glenn, ego, arrogance and pride on the parts of some seniors has caused not only a rift in what organizaiton should lead, but also central philosophies and techniques.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

My instructor is a KKW master and I have two other individuals that I know that are KKW masters. If it was my desire, I could easily have gone up to 6th Dan through the KKW. Not because my buddies would have 'given' it too me, but because that is my TKD rank and I have the ability and knowledge necessary to obtain such a grading.

If you say so. It ain't that easy getting a Kukkiwon 6th Dan. The lower dan ranks, yes, but 6th Dan? Personally, I don't know many who have that. Ask your "friends" if they have one.

 

[ATC]

You standardize through competition, simple as that. Competition will set the rules based on the standards. You also don't allow any progression upwards unless they are tested by the NGB itself after say 4th Dan. Anyone wanting to move past the level of 4th Dan must travel to the NGB headquarters and be tested there. This will force those that will teach in the future know and adopt the curriculum. It will take time to do, but over time your org will be standardized. As the old farts retire the younger gen will have been forced to learn the curriculum or not advance. They will in turn begin to teach what is now the standard, that they have truly tested for.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Thank you for acknowleging that, I appreciate it.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

No problem.

If you say so. It ain't that easy getting a Kukkiwon 6th Dan. The lower dan ranks, yes, but 6th Dan? Personally, I don't know many who have that. Ask your "friends" if they have one.

I would certainly hope it isn't easy to obtain one. They are both 7th Dan and I have discussed it with them. Their advice, along with my instructors is what pursuaded me to forego testing for the various KKW grades. For me, what I had obtained was sufficient.

Others mileage, may of course vary.

 

[puunui]

You standardize through competition, simple as that. Competition will set the rules based on the standards. You also don't allow any progression upwards unless they are tested by the NGB itself after say 4th Dan. Anyone wanting to move past the level of 4th Dan must travel to the NGB headquarters and be tested there. This will force those that will teach in the future know and adopt the curriculum. It will take time to do, but over time your org will be standardized. As the old farts retire the younger gen will have been forced to learn the curriculum or not advance. They will in turn begin to teach what is now the standard, that they have truly tested for.

I agree with the standardization through competition. That is how it worked for sparring and that is now the impetus for standardization in poomsae. When for example, the USTU dropped the Palgwae poomsae as a competition form, everyone switched to the Taeguek poomsae.

I don't agree with having the "NGB" testing. Too much issues involved with that, plus we are interfering with the student teacher relationship, which is important. I go agree that there should be a mechanism whereby those whose instructor retire or some other special situation be allowed to test through the representatives of the WTF Member National Association, but it should not be mandatory. Instructors won't support that idea.

You do bring up a good point (although I do not know if I wish to characterize seniors as "old farts") about the next generation coming up. What we are seeing is that the younger generation of instructor do not have the same perspective as far as holding on to older forms, self defense orientation, etc. The younger generation want to learn and teach the current kukkiwon curriculum, even if their instructors were a little resistant. So grandfathering in the senior, we sometimes we have to be patient and take a long term view on these things and wait a generation before the standardization occurs. We have more standardization today than ever before in kukki taekwondo.

 

[puunui]

I would certainly hope it isn't easy to obtain one. They are both 7th Dan and I have discussed it with them.

Who are they may I ask. I probably know or at least heard of them. There aren't that many Kukkiwon 7th Dans running around the united states, at least not american born ones.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I think you know at least one, GM Davies in GB. Or it may have been his brother that you know? The other is Master Smits (sp?) in NY. Very good people and I've had the privilege to talk with both many times. Master Smits was one of the moderators on an earlier version of Martial Warrior.