Pride's Price

[Anarax]

Students are their biggest obstacle when they are more concerned for their pride than training. I've seen this in multiple schools over the years. There are numerous drills that are crucial in developing your skills as a martial artist. Drills are to train muscle memory, improve technique and/or to improve a physical attribute(speed, power, etc). For example; if a student gives maximum resistance in a basic flow drill, they think they are achieving or proving something. A fencing student that only wants to do bouts and not train the basics thus don't improve their skills.

However; when they spar they lack technical expertise because the drills they either don't do or do incorrectly doesn't build the fundamentals. Usually the students are humbled after sparring and start to see the importance of the drills and why they are designed the way they are. However; there are the occasional few that never seem to reach that conclusion. They keep training the same way thinking something will change

Has anyone else seen or experienced this?

 

[marques]

However; when they spar they lack technical expertise because the drills they either don't do or do incorrectly doesn't build the fundamentals. Usually the students are humbled after sparring and start to see the importance of the drills and why they are designed the way they are. However; there are the occasional few that never seem to reach that conclusion. They keep training the same way thinking something will change

The same everywhere. But it seems to me they don't keep thinking the same way, rather they stopped thinking at some point in the past, sadly. When things don't go well, some people just go harder, faster and clearly worse.

Fortunately, these are only some people. Unfortunately, some of them happens to be our training partners....

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Best advice given to me was 'empty your cup'. No one can fill a vessel that is already full of what you think you know.

Second best advice was to relax.

Next was 'speed comes from skill, skill comes from practice, and form before all'.

 

[Buka]

Honestly never seen a student not do drills, if drills were part of their training.
Never experienced a student training the same way - if that way was incorrect. I don't know anyone who would let students go down those paths.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

when they spar they lack technical expertise because the drills they either don't do or do incorrectly doesn't build the fundamentals.

This is why a special rule should be set for the sparring. If you want your students to train "foot sweep" that day, your students can only win in sparring by using "foot sweep". Any other technique that they use, it will be ignored and the sparring continue.

 

[jobo]

Students are their biggest obstacle when they are more concerned for their pride than training. I've seen this in multiple schools over the years. There are numerous drills that are crucial in developing your skills as a martial artist. Drills are to train muscle memory, improve technique and/or to improve a physical attribute(speed, power, etc). For example; if a student gives maximum resistance in a basic flow drill, they think they are achieving or proving something. A fencing student that only wants to do bouts and not train the basics thus don't improve their skills.

However; when they spar they lack technical expertise because the drills they either don't do or do incorrectly doesn't build the fundamentals. Usually the students are humbled after sparring and start to see the importance of the drills and why they are designed the way they are. However; there are the occasional few that never seem to reach that conclusion. They keep training the same way thinking something will change

Has anyone else seen or experienced this?

drills don't do what you think they do, building a movement memory for a skill in slow motion does not give you a movement memory for,a fast of strong use of the skill. That's why meticulously rehearsed slow drills break down the moment you try and do them in real time , and why drills should be done as fast or as hard as you can do them, whilst still maintain some thing like the form , but that's what your objecting to people doing?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

drills don't do what you think they do, building a movement memory for a skill in slow motion does not give you a movement memory for,a fast of strong use of the skill. That's why meticulously rehearsed slow drills break down the moment you try and do them in real time , and why drills should be done as fast or as hard as you can do them, whilst still maintain some thing like the form , but that's what your objecting to people doing?

That's not my experience. Slow drills work when moving somewhat faster. You don't need to train balls-to-the-wall to be able to go at that speed. Slower, more controlled work allows building proper structure and movement, which you can't do while moving "as fast or as hard as you can do them". There's a reason all training (boxing, wrestling, BJJ, etc.) uses the principle of training slow and slowly building up, only going full-speed/full-power on occasion, and only once the proper mechanics are developed by slower drills.

 

[jobo]

That's not my experience. Slow drills work when moving somewhat faster. You don't need to train balls-to-the-wall to be able to go at that speed. Slower, more controlled work allows building proper structure and movement, which you can't do while moving "as fast or as hard as you can do them". There's a reason all training (boxing, wrestling, BJJ, etc.) uses the principle of training slow and slowly building up, only going full-speed/full-power on occasion, and only once the proper mechanics are developed by slower drills.

no they don't, no , they train at the fastest speed they can and,still do the techneque, have you ever seen any other sport where they spend weeks in slo mo
. Never seen boxer doing slow motion punches for an hour or football players kicking in slow motion. Basketball players throwing slowly?
its another one of these stupid tma things

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no they don't, no , they train at the fastest speed they can and,still do the techneque, have you ever seen any other sport where they spend weeks in slo mo
. Never seen boxer doing slow motion punches for an hour or football players kicking in slow motion. Basketball players throwing slowly?
its another one of these stupid tma things

I never said anything about slo-mo.

 

[jobo]

I never said anything about slo-mo.

you said Slow drills, that's slow motion ie the motion in the drill is SLOW, other wise you would have called them fast drills!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

you said Slow drills, that's slow motion ie the motion in the drill is SLOW, other wise you would have called them fast drills!

Yeah, it's not binary. There's a progression of speed. Of course, you knew that.

 

[Danny T]

Drill at the speed that you can do the movements properly.
The build the speed working only as fast as you can still do the actions properly.
When basketball players learn a new set up or football players learn a new play they walk through the play several times first then they increase the speed of the drill or the set up as they get better. Then they start working at speed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Drill at the speed that you can do the movements properly.

It may be OK to train slow during the beginner training stage. It's not OK to still train slow during the advance training stage. For some Taiji guys, they train slow when they were 8 years old. They still train slow when they are 80 years old.

 

[Danny T]

At 63 I do some drills slowly, then moderately and then with full speed a few times and then back to moderately. I can get a lot more correct reps in at moderate speed than going full speed. When or If I get to 80 slow may be fast for me.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

some students are like that they dont practice their drill or their technique forms or set or even the basic and when it comes to the sparring their having problem they realy need to be focus on what they are doing what if in sparirng you dont know how to kick punch or strike then you gonna get lost in sparring and your oppoent thats good in sparirng will beat him or her thats for sure of they dont pracrtice

 

[Anarax]

drills don't do what you think they do, building a movement memory for a skill in slow motion does not give you a movement memory for,a fast of strong use of the skill. That's why meticulously rehearsed slow drills break down the moment you try and do them in real time , and why drills should be done as fast or as hard as you can do them, whilst still maintain some thing like the form , but that's what your objecting to people doing?

Building the fundamental and techniques is one thing drills are for, granted most drills have a skill progression. For example, if you are practicing sweeps you should be taught the mechanics and moves on how to execute the technique. Second, you go through the motions of the sweep with a non-resisting partner, non-resisting doesn't mean fall to the ground when your leg is nudged, but to only go down when you balance was taken and were legitimately swept. Third, try executing the technique in sparring, sparring obviously is a resisting opponent and you execute it with speed. I have performed numerous sweeps in sparring and learned how to do so with the process stated above.

The student mentioned in my OP tries to do everything as quickly and as hard as possible, thus he's never able to do much anything in sparring. He is shown the mechanics and steps of a sweep, but it all goes out the window when he tries to use speed and power. This is because he hasn't drilled the technique properly. He almost never has an answer for any technique you throw at him on sparring, including sweeps.

no they don't, no , they train at the fastest speed they can and,still do the techneque

Exactly, when they can still do the technique. I'm referring to those that lack the technical expertise to do it even at a moderate pace. Not all drills are for speed and power. You have balance, sensitivity, angles, footwork, etc.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

At 63 I do some drills slowly, then moderately and then with full speed a few times and then back to moderately.

I still do my drill fast. I'm afraid if I slow myself down, I will have to slow down for the rest of my life. I know I have to slow down someday. I just try to maker that day to come as late as possible. I strongly believe that if I don't use it, I will lose it forever.

 

[drop bear]

At 63 I do some drills slowly, then moderately and then with full speed a few times and then back to moderately. I can get a lot more correct reps in at moderate speed than going full speed. When or If I get to 80 slow may be fast for me.

You will get out of the drills what you put in. If you go fast you will get speed. If you are precise. You will get precision.

You reasonably need both. So make progression towards both.

 

[Buka]

I really like speed.

 

[JR 137]

I struggle with going slow at first. When my CI shows me a new technique, combo, etc. I pretty much always go too fast at first. When I go too fast when initially learning it, I miss a lot of subtleties. Those subtleties that I miss are almost always the ones that make or break the technique

I pretty much always have to take a step back and ask myself why I did it again. I'll slow it down to the point where I'm basically walking through it without much speed and power (not at a snail's pace, but definitely not fast), get it down to where it works for me, then start adding speed, then start adding power. When I do that is when it really starts to work and doesn't look like a mess.

Why I constantly forget that step, I'll never know. I guess most often maybe I think "that looks simple" and I just go at the pace I think it should be done at my usual pace.

All I know for sure is I don't genuinely "get" the technique until I do it slowly and without power until I have a solid understanding of the intricacies like timing, footwork, hand/foot positioning and placement, etc.

A great example is the prearranged sparring drills we do. The most basic one we do is one person will slide forward (not step through) with a middle punch, then slide forward with a high punch. The partner will slide back and block with each punch. The the partner does it. Then step forward and with a front kick twice, and the partner will step backward and block each kick. Repeat for the partner. Then punches again the same way for both people, followed by a finishing technique. I look at it and think "that's pretty easy, nothing new with that" and go at a fast and hard pace. Then it gets pointed out that my non-punching and blocking hand(s) were down and not protecting my head the entire time, I dropped my hands while kicking, I stepped too far or not far enough, I was looking at the floor, I started the blocks too soon or too late, etc. Basically, I memorized all the movements, but everything I did went against every reason why we actually do them - maintaining proper form and timing while doing basics. Then I realize I went too fast and hard too soon yet again, so I slow down to where I can do all those things without leaving stuff out, then slow enough where I don't have to think about any of them, then I finally speed it up to near full speed and power.

I go through that same cycle every time. Sometimes it doesn't take as long for me to realize it; other times I've been doing it way too long before I remind myself how much of an idiot and predictable I truly am.