I'm fine with that.
In fact, I think that's in the mission statement.
Presas Arnis
- Thread starter Dan Anderson
- Start date
In fact, I think that's in the mission statement.
Great!
Therefore, I think all of us need to take a step back and treat the FMA/MA forums like that.
Let's not assume that person A knows and can ask person B regarding an item if it is public in nature. I am sure that Dan and Tim have been knowing each other longer than some of us have be training. However, as far as this forum, its ok for Dan, or as Tim has done previously, ask professional questions regarding public titles.
Concerning questioning motives - Basically, it doesn't matter as to what motive a person has when they pursue a professional question, only that was the question asked in a professional and thoughtful manner.
Accessibility - If you make yourself accessible enough to plug a seminar or product on this board, then please consider representing yourself when questions are asked as well.
These are, of course, my personal opinions but it comes from professional experiences and the desire for MT to continue its development as an avenue for friendly and professional Martial Arts discussion.
Harold,
They can ask all the professional questions they want.
Discuss all the techniques they like.
Be nice if there was some of that, to balance out the seminar announcements and book plugs.
But We will not allow the game playing, and they all know that we can smell it when it's there.
Enjoy.
They can ask all the professional questions they want.
Discuss all the techniques they like.
Be nice if there was some of that, to balance out the seminar announcements and book plugs.
But We will not allow the game playing, and they all know that we can smell it when it's there.
Enjoy.
OP
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
- Thread Starter
- #24
Bob,
1. I resemble that remark! And yes, buy the book...any book...of mine.
2. The only game playing is one out of curiosity. Shucks. It wasn't even smelly. I talked to Tim last summer when he told me that the WMAA board had promoted him to 10th degree in Presas Arnis (my recall - any incorrect data is mine). I asked him when he was going to make an announcement and he said he was "going to pull the trigger" after the WMAA summer camp. The summer camp has come and gone and no announcement. After several months I thought, "What the hell. I'll bring up the topic and see what the answer is." What I thought was interesting was that a stream of no-answers came out. finally the answer comes out in someone's Facebook ad that Tim was teaching at their event.
Now, you'll notice that I have not posted anything even remotely resembling any kind of game playing or flame. These are not the old MT days when you could stink-bomb anyone with impunity.
Hey - I remember an attempted stink-bombing of yours truly from some posters on this matter, Tim included. :erg: I deflected the bombs with a skill rarely seen by mortal eyes. I was truly awesome. No stinky-bomby here. I had two questions I wanted to see if they would be publicly answered. One got answered and that took two months or so. the other remains to be answered.
Now, from preferably James Miller (who has appeared to be the official WMAA spokesman in the past) or Tim, what is Presas Arnis? Sub questions: how does it differ from Remy Modern Arnis and Ernesto Kombatan? What are the elements which make it up? Does PA contain other elements outside of the Presas brothers as well?
I'm curious.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
Right Bob,
However, as long as no rules are broken, each member has an opportunity to post, each member has an opportunity to ignore or reply. And then based on post or replies, all members can then decide for themselves the value and validity of the content of the post or reply.
-Harold
Harold,
Game playing falls under trolling. Trolling is against the rules. Our moderation staff will be the ones deciding that, as always. Other than that, no one who is willing to follow our rules here, is being denied that ability. No posts censored, and so on.
As always,
Your benevolent gawd-like dictator for life.
Archangel M
Senior Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2007
- Messages
- 4,555
- Reaction score
- 154
What is the definition of "game playing" as it applies to this forum?
Repeating the damning behavior of trolls long since removed.
OP
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
- Thread Starter
- #29
Awfully general, that answer. Specifics, please.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
Yours,
Dan Anderson
Lets start with asking a question whos answer you already knew, in an attempt to publicly engage the answerer, one who you have an immediate direct line to where rather than wait months for reply, you could have in 5 minutes...
OP
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
- Thread Starter
- #31
1. I did.
2. Publicly, absolutely.
3. Yup.
What is being assumed here is intent. The troll behavior in the past back when MT was a forum in which one could actively hammer one another has long since been handled by the Mods, most notably Harold, quite some time ago. What is wrong with public dialog? Isn't that what a forum is all about?
The guarded or hinted at assumption is that I am attempting to bring some kind of hammer down on Tim because of differences we have had in the past. Tim and I are in good communication these days, especially about the upcoming camp, so please don't read some sort of intent behind my questions.
I had two questions that many others had asked me privately: what is Presas Arnis and what is that belt Tim is wearing? I can't, with any degree of education, answer the first question because I only have a peripheral knowledge of Tim's influences. He was a 6th degree Datu under Remy Presas. He trained for a time under Manong Ted Buot. He has been associated with Dr. Gyi for some time. He received a 9th degree from Ernesto Presas. So, what are his other influences and how do they fit in with the formation of Presas Arnis? This is a technical question.
The belt that he wears in the Modern Arnis Minute video series is the same kind that Sr. GM Ed Parker used to wear. He was a 10th dan in American Kenpo. Is this a 10th dan designation in Presas Arnis? This is a question I get as well. I can tell others what Tim has told me but it is often more clearly stated from someone from the organization or Tim himself. This is for the sake of clarity.
You can't get a clearer answer from Bram Frank as to what MA80 is. He knows what he knows but to get clarity you go to the source. The same is me regarding CSSD/SC. You want to know about it, ask Bram.
Towards the end of the thread I started to have a little bit of fun with it because people are getting too SERIOUS about the thread. Lighten up. The MT stink-bomb raids are a thing of the past.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
PS - Buy the memoirs! They're great!
ok.
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2009
- Messages
- 3,399
- Reaction score
- 74
Otoh, in my experience, as soon as you are very specific in defining every detail of what is and is not allowed, people do their best to step right along the lines and any loopholes they can find so as to still troll while not -technically- breaking any rules.
Personally I always say that instead of worrying about how far you can push, just try to all be respectful and polite, and everything will work out in the end
Im kind of surprised by this thread. Ive talked to you, Dan, many times over the past year. If you wanted answers of what and why we are doing things, all you had to do was ask. Not to mention that we talked about this in the beginning of 2010. Why wait so long? What you should have done was call or post the question on FMAT. I check that forum daily. I visit MT once a month at best.
Since the question was asked, I will tell you what Presas Arnis is. The short answer is it is the combination of Modern Arnis and Kombatan. For the last several years, WMAA members have been training and testing in both systems simultaneously. The board and I have been talking for a while about officially combining curriculums under one banner for years. Why Presas Arnis? We wanted to give equal credit to both of the Presas brothers. On the 10 year anniversary of the WMAA, we officially released the Presas Arnis program.
Does this change what we are doing? Maybe. Personally, I feel that it is a broadening of what we offer. GM Manglinong and I have worked on this for a while and are teaching what we learned from both brothers. We arent stepping away from either system. We are embracing both! The two systems complement each other quite well. Currently, when issuing Black Belt diplomas, we issue three different ones (at no extra cost). The first is Modern Arnis, the second Kombatan and the third is Presas Arnis. I foresee the Modern Arnis and Kombatan diplomas eventually being phased out, but for now we are keeping them. I understand how people may have sentimental feelings for the names of the two systems.
Am I wearing the 10th degree belt? Yes, just like I told you last year. This has been a discussion that started from the beginning of the WMAA. Would I take the 10th degree in Modern Arnis? No, I have made that very clear from the beginning. There was only one, Remy A. Presas. Could there be another 10th? Only if the rest of the MA community reunited and selected one. Like thats going to happen anytime soon! So why the 10th now, did I need an extra title? No, Rick Manglinong and I were both promoted to 9th and Grand Master by a member of the Presas family, the late GGM Ernesto Presas. We were also informed at a west coast IPMAF meeting that GGM Ernesto was going to promote the two of us to the next level when we visited on our next trip this May. As flattered as we were with this endorsement by GGM, it didnt influence the decision of our board. Thats why both Rick and I took the 10th degree when forming the new program.
We did announce everything at the WMAA camp to our members about the promotions and direction that we are going. Why wasnt there a public announcement? With everything going on, it slipped through the cracks. We didnt even get the chance to write a review of the camp. Was I was afraid of what people would say? If that were the case, Rick and I wouldnt have worn our belts publicly in the Modern Arnis Minutes. Further more I wouldnt have told people outside the WMAA like Master Parsons, Master Zawilinski or you Dan!
The last two years, we at the WMAA have been working on a project that has been consuming a great deal of our time. What project is that? The Modern Arnis Reunion Camp! Ive been meeting with different organizations, instructors, hotels, caterers, etc. Throw in the tournaments that I host or consult on, this Mays Philippines tour and the new European camp Im doing in Poland and it makes for a busy schedule. Add in the fact that Im dyslexic, and I think people would understand why I dont spend as much time on the net as I use to.
So to recap:
The WMAA now teaches Presas Arnis, a combination of Modern Arnis and Kombatan.
Grand Masters Hartman and Manglinong are now 10th degree black belts in Presas Arnis.
If anyone would like to discuss this in greater detail, feel free to call me at my school 716-675-0899. That number is usually forwarded to my cell. Or if you would like to have a face-to-face conversation we could meet at one of my upcoming events listed below. Now I will be getting back to working on this Julys reunion camp.
Respectfully yours,
GM-Datu Tim Hartman
Datu Hartmans 2011 events
January 21st & 22nd Atlantic City, New Jersey.
Datu Tim Hartman will be a guest instructor at the 2011 Action Martial Arts Magazine Hall of Honors and Trade show. For more information contact Sifu Alan Golderg at 718-856-8070 or http://www.actionmagstore.com/
February 26th Detroit, Michigan
Datu Tim Hartman and Master Rich Parsons will be conducting a joint seminar on Modern Arnis and Balintawak. For more information contact Bill Barker at [email protected] or http://www.progressivetactics.com/
March 26th London, Ontario Canada
Datu Hartman will be conducting a Presas Arnis seminar. For more information contact Scott Southwell at [email protected]
April 9th Buffalo, New York
Datu Hartman will be hosting the Buffalo Niagara Laban Laro IX Tournament. This tournament will feature Stick and Sword Fighting divisions. For more information contact Datu Hartman at 716-675-0899 or email [email protected] or visit our site http://queencitylabanlaro.com
April 9th & 10th Buffalo, New York
Datu Hartman will be conducting a CIT (Certified Instructor Training) course. Topics will include EDT (Edged weapon Defensive Tactics), Solo Baston & PSC (Progressive Sword Concepts) modules. The training will follow the Buffalo Niagara Laban Laro Tournament. For more information contact the WMAA Headquarters at 716-771-1291 of [email protected]
April 15th 17th Saratoga Springs, New York
Datu Hartman will be a guest instructor at the Saratoga Martial Arts Festival. For more information contact Steve Pearlman at [email protected] or http://www.saratogafestival.com
May 14th, Gainesville, Virginia
Datu Tim Hartman will be teaching a seminar on Modern Arnis Concepts. For more information contact Gainesville Modern Arnis at: 703-774-6722 or [email protected]
May 19th 21st Cromwell, Connecticut
Datu Hartman will be a guest instructor at the IMAF Connecticut Training Camp. For more information contact Brian Zawilinski at [email protected]
June 11th Chicago, Illinois
Datu Tim Hartman will be the head arbitrator at the Pacific Island Gathering Tournament. For more information contact Guro John at 773-284-8818 email the [email protected]
July 14th 17th , 2011 Buffalo, New York
Modern Arnis Reunion Camp
July 30th August 7th Poland WMAA Poland Training Camp
September 16th & 17th Lake Tahoe, California
2nd Annual Presas Arnis (WMAA) West Coast Conference
September 23rd 25th Buffalo, New York
The Buffalo Niagara Martial Arts Festival (BNMAF) will feature seminars taught by some of the leading martial artists in their fields. This years event will feature:
Datu Tim Hartman Presas Arnis
Master Rich Parsons Balintawak Eskrima
Sensei John Borter Modern Jujitsu
Sensei Ken Swan Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu
More instructors to be added.
This event will include a banquet Saturday evening and a tour of Niagara Falls Sunday afternoon. For more information contact Horizon Martial Art at [email protected] or 716-771-1291.
Since the question was asked, I will tell you what Presas Arnis is. The short answer is it is the combination of Modern Arnis and Kombatan. For the last several years, WMAA members have been training and testing in both systems simultaneously. The board and I have been talking for a while about officially combining curriculums under one banner for years. Why Presas Arnis? We wanted to give equal credit to both of the Presas brothers. On the 10 year anniversary of the WMAA, we officially released the Presas Arnis program.
Does this change what we are doing? Maybe. Personally, I feel that it is a broadening of what we offer. GM Manglinong and I have worked on this for a while and are teaching what we learned from both brothers. We arent stepping away from either system. We are embracing both! The two systems complement each other quite well. Currently, when issuing Black Belt diplomas, we issue three different ones (at no extra cost). The first is Modern Arnis, the second Kombatan and the third is Presas Arnis. I foresee the Modern Arnis and Kombatan diplomas eventually being phased out, but for now we are keeping them. I understand how people may have sentimental feelings for the names of the two systems.
Am I wearing the 10th degree belt? Yes, just like I told you last year. This has been a discussion that started from the beginning of the WMAA. Would I take the 10th degree in Modern Arnis? No, I have made that very clear from the beginning. There was only one, Remy A. Presas. Could there be another 10th? Only if the rest of the MA community reunited and selected one. Like thats going to happen anytime soon! So why the 10th now, did I need an extra title? No, Rick Manglinong and I were both promoted to 9th and Grand Master by a member of the Presas family, the late GGM Ernesto Presas. We were also informed at a west coast IPMAF meeting that GGM Ernesto was going to promote the two of us to the next level when we visited on our next trip this May. As flattered as we were with this endorsement by GGM, it didnt influence the decision of our board. Thats why both Rick and I took the 10th degree when forming the new program.
We did announce everything at the WMAA camp to our members about the promotions and direction that we are going. Why wasnt there a public announcement? With everything going on, it slipped through the cracks. We didnt even get the chance to write a review of the camp. Was I was afraid of what people would say? If that were the case, Rick and I wouldnt have worn our belts publicly in the Modern Arnis Minutes. Further more I wouldnt have told people outside the WMAA like Master Parsons, Master Zawilinski or you Dan!
The last two years, we at the WMAA have been working on a project that has been consuming a great deal of our time. What project is that? The Modern Arnis Reunion Camp! Ive been meeting with different organizations, instructors, hotels, caterers, etc. Throw in the tournaments that I host or consult on, this Mays Philippines tour and the new European camp Im doing in Poland and it makes for a busy schedule. Add in the fact that Im dyslexic, and I think people would understand why I dont spend as much time on the net as I use to.
So to recap:
The WMAA now teaches Presas Arnis, a combination of Modern Arnis and Kombatan.
Grand Masters Hartman and Manglinong are now 10th degree black belts in Presas Arnis.
If anyone would like to discuss this in greater detail, feel free to call me at my school 716-675-0899. That number is usually forwarded to my cell. Or if you would like to have a face-to-face conversation we could meet at one of my upcoming events listed below. Now I will be getting back to working on this Julys reunion camp.
Respectfully yours,
GM-Datu Tim Hartman
Datu Hartmans 2011 events
January 21st & 22nd Atlantic City, New Jersey.
Datu Tim Hartman will be a guest instructor at the 2011 Action Martial Arts Magazine Hall of Honors and Trade show. For more information contact Sifu Alan Golderg at 718-856-8070 or http://www.actionmagstore.com/
February 26th Detroit, Michigan
Datu Tim Hartman and Master Rich Parsons will be conducting a joint seminar on Modern Arnis and Balintawak. For more information contact Bill Barker at [email protected] or http://www.progressivetactics.com/
March 26th London, Ontario Canada
Datu Hartman will be conducting a Presas Arnis seminar. For more information contact Scott Southwell at [email protected]
April 9th Buffalo, New York
Datu Hartman will be hosting the Buffalo Niagara Laban Laro IX Tournament. This tournament will feature Stick and Sword Fighting divisions. For more information contact Datu Hartman at 716-675-0899 or email [email protected] or visit our site http://queencitylabanlaro.com
April 9th & 10th Buffalo, New York
Datu Hartman will be conducting a CIT (Certified Instructor Training) course. Topics will include EDT (Edged weapon Defensive Tactics), Solo Baston & PSC (Progressive Sword Concepts) modules. The training will follow the Buffalo Niagara Laban Laro Tournament. For more information contact the WMAA Headquarters at 716-771-1291 of [email protected]
April 15th 17th Saratoga Springs, New York
Datu Hartman will be a guest instructor at the Saratoga Martial Arts Festival. For more information contact Steve Pearlman at [email protected] or http://www.saratogafestival.com
May 14th, Gainesville, Virginia
Datu Tim Hartman will be teaching a seminar on Modern Arnis Concepts. For more information contact Gainesville Modern Arnis at: 703-774-6722 or [email protected]
May 19th 21st Cromwell, Connecticut
Datu Hartman will be a guest instructor at the IMAF Connecticut Training Camp. For more information contact Brian Zawilinski at [email protected]
June 11th Chicago, Illinois
Datu Tim Hartman will be the head arbitrator at the Pacific Island Gathering Tournament. For more information contact Guro John at 773-284-8818 email the [email protected]
July 14th 17th , 2011 Buffalo, New York
Modern Arnis Reunion Camp
July 30th August 7th Poland WMAA Poland Training Camp
September 16th & 17th Lake Tahoe, California
2nd Annual Presas Arnis (WMAA) West Coast Conference
September 23rd 25th Buffalo, New York
The Buffalo Niagara Martial Arts Festival (BNMAF) will feature seminars taught by some of the leading martial artists in their fields. This years event will feature:
Datu Tim Hartman Presas Arnis
Master Rich Parsons Balintawak Eskrima
Sensei John Borter Modern Jujitsu
Sensei Ken Swan Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu
More instructors to be added.
This event will include a banquet Saturday evening and a tour of Niagara Falls Sunday afternoon. For more information contact Horizon Martial Art at [email protected] or 716-771-1291.
Nice post Tim.
IMO, I think this sums up what you do very nice. While I have not had the chance to train Kombaton, I have seen a few dvds on the art and I liked what I saw. Personally, I see nothing wrong with the mix. I'm sure they blend together just fine.As for the belt issue....IMO, thats nothing to worry about. I've seen Kajukenbo people wearing stripes and bars on their belt, much like Parker Kenpo, even though Kaju belts are unique in their own right.
Excellent! I look forward to seeing you in Cromwell as well as NY.
The blend between the Modern Arnis of Ernesto (we quit working with Ernesto in 1993. About 6 years before the renaming of his system to Kombatan) and the Modern Arnis of GM Remy is what we in the DAV do since 15 years.
GM
Datu Dieter Knüttel
GM
Datu Dieter Knüttel
I agree; a very considerate reply! I may try to make the time to come out and play when you're in Gainesville...Nice post Tim.
As for the belt issue....IMO, thats nothing to worry about. I've seen Kajukenbo people wearing stripes and bars on their belt, much like Parker Kenpo, even though Kaju belts are unique in their own right.
Excellent! I look forward to seeing you in Cromwell as well as NY.
Question for Tim,
I'm sure I'll have an opportunity to see first hand, your style, at the camps, but for the sake of discussion....
you said that you're teaching a blend of the 2. That being said, what have you added/deleted from each, to create what you currently teach? Ex: anyos...are they still in the system, have you kept them as they way GM Remy did them? Disarms...are they more GM Remy, GM Ernesto, etc.?
I'm sure I'll have an opportunity to see first hand, your style, at the camps, but for the sake of discussion....
you said that you're teaching a blend of the 2. That being said, what have you added/deleted from each, to create what you currently teach? Ex: anyos...are they still in the system, have you kept them as they way GM Remy did them? Disarms...are they more GM Remy, GM Ernesto, etc.?
Yes, besides Dieter and Tim, Hock Hochheim's SFC system has had for years the influences of of the late GMs Remy and Ernesto Presas.
Datu Tim, though you didn't have to reply on MT, it is appreciated that you did.
Datu Tim, though you didn't have to reply on MT, it is appreciated that you did.
We kept everything. The thing that we're working on at the moment is where the Kombatan Anyos should be taught. As far as adding goes, we've brought more Balintawak into the system. Prof. used that system for source material when creating MA. We've also blended some Bando in as well. Prof. started working with Dr. Gyi a couple years prior to his hospitalization and was very impressed with him and what he has teaching. The last seminar I hosted with them together, Prof. actually got on the floor and trained part of Dr. Gyi's session!
