ppko & xequat take a look

[RRouuselot]

Robert

You seem to have a way of not answering a question, but skirting around the issue, whilst making yet another issue. At the same time, inferring that the person you are responding to, is part of the problem of both issues.

You have not addressed any of the points raised, as promised.

Regards

Russell

What question was that?
I answered your question that you asked here to which you replied:
Hi Robert

Thanks for the reply. I hope we can now move forward with some enlightening discussion.
or do you mean this question? Must have missed it. You sure get snippy when someone doesn’t answer you question don’t you.



My question to you is, If you had to make an mpeg for a website that was designed to show the effectiveness of Kyusho (for want of another term) what would the clip show?



First off I don’t feel I HAVE to make an mpeg for anything. Secondly, I am not really even sure why you would ask this question since it would be painfully obvious to anyone that has been reading this thread what criteria would have to be met.

• The “attacker” would actually have to do some sort of attack, not necessarily at speed but fast enough to get the general idea of the technique’s effectiveness.
• Explain all you want but when it comes time to do technique, shut the hell up and do it with at least a degree of realism and speed. These are 2 examples of pure crap, in fact these are so bad on so many levels I don’t think MT has the bandwidth to hold all the comments that could be made. http://www.kyusho.com/jackieoickle1.wmv http://www.kyusho.com/KItoc.htm
• As I said before, not everything has to be a “KO”, or what you guys are referring to as “kyusho”.

 

[RRouuselot]

Well, KI has guys in Milwaukee, Wisconsin and Flora, Illinois. Not exactly in the Chicago area, but nearby.

There is an ex-Dillman guy who is a 7th dan under Dillman and was on the News there a while back. He claimed he could do "No touch KOs" and so on and made all kinds of excuses why it worked on every single student of his, but when he was taken to the local BBJ club it didn't work on a single person.
There was a thread here on MT that had a link to it.

 

[Cryozombie]

Well, KI has guys in Milwaukee, Wisconsin and Flora, Illinois. Not exactly in the Chicago area, but nearby.

Hmm. Milwakee is only like 2 hours away... Id be up for that...

 

[BlackCatBonz]

i dont want to speak for robert....
but as for the TCM stuff......and i am talking about traditional chinese medicine...not martial arts.
most of the guys that do this dont even have what some would call cursory knowledge.
you cant just pick up a book and say....wow the optical nerve goes right into the brain...how cool, i can just blap the eye and hit his brain.
or..........wow, 5 elements, destuctive cycle.....yin-yang, pernicious influence...blah blah blah.
im not claiming to be a cert TCM practitioner, nor am i claiming to be a kyusho knockout artist.....but i did study shiatsu in a real school, with real teachers who were MD's, DC's, DO's, D.Acc's, DCM.....
admittedly.....some guys do have this training.
i just think if someone really knew what it was they were playing with, they wouldnt do it with such little discretion.

 

[EricD]

There is an ex-Dillman guy who is a 7th dan under Dillman and was on the News there a while back. He claimed he could do "No touch KOs" and so on and made all kinds of excuses why it worked on every single student of his, but when he was taken to the local BBJ club it didn't work on a single person.
There was a thread here on MT that had a link to it.

I know the one you are talking about. It was some kind of Fox news thing, wasn't it? The guy that Ripley's Believe It or Not dubbed "The Human Stun Gun".

 

[Makalakumu]

i just think if someone really knew what it was they were playing with, they wouldnt do it with such little discretion.

THAT is exactly what I was thinking. How can being KOed by using these points on a regular basis be at all healthy? Perhaps some MT members with knowledge in TCM could enlighten?

 

[EricD]

Hmm. Milwakee is only like 2 hours away... Id be up for that...

Well, his name is Mark Gridley. I will send you a message with his email address (hate to put it here and it get picked up by a spam bot).

 

[Cryozombie]

Im gonna drop him a line and see if I can go up and check it out, thanks!

 

[ppko]

Guys...

I know this thread is just a big heated debate on this stuff, but I have a question for you...

Is there a skilled Pressure Point Touch or No Touch Knockout "master" in the Chicago area that would be willing to knock me out?

Not with the Eye one... that creeps me out and I like my eyes... even as poor as they are.

I am SERIOUSLY interested, and would love to "see" this in action. If someone nearby is willing to have me at their school and do this to me, I would love to come.

Dusty Seale, I am not sure that he would but I am pretty sure go to www.dillman.com and click on schools to find out more information

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

I know this doesn't quite fit the requirement of attacker actually attacking, but it does show a more realistic knockout response:

http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/fightclub-home.mpeg

 

[RRouuselot]

Dusty Seale, I am not sure that he would but I am pretty sure go to www.dillman.com and click on schools to find out more information

Aren't you the guy that kept saying I was always trying to promote my teacher??????

Sorry to say but it seems like that is all you ever do........don't you know anyone else that does what you reffer to as "kyusho"?

 

[ghostdog2]

"THAT is exactly what I was thinking. How can being KOed by using these points on a regular basis be at all healthy? Perhaps some MT members with knowledge in TCM could enlighten?" Posted by Upnorthkyosha

I don't know a thing about TCM but I do know a bit about the law. If these KO's are entirely bogus, no harm done. If they are at all real, somebody is going to get hurt. Striking an unprotected neck or eye will, some day, go wrong, I fear. When it does, a lawsuit will follow. The trial won't take long and the outcome won't be pretty.
Rendering people unconscious, for any reason, is risky. To do it as part of a "demonstration" or sales pitch is down right foolish. Today's willing student is tomorrow's plaintiff. Good luck.
__________________

 

[RRouuselot]

I know this doesn't quite fit the requirement of attacker actually attacking, but it does show a more realistic knockout response:

http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/fightclub-home.mpeg

Hmmmm…….interesting video…..well sort of anyway.

I wonder can any of our Kyusho International "Masters" tell us just which point was struck that caused that KO?

Was it stomach 5 maybe?.....I think it was point DA 1 = (dumb *** #1) or was it Jaw 1? I can't really tell for sure.


Needless to say that was a bunch of teenagers doing something pretty dumb…..but then that’s what teenagers do isn’t it……

I do feel sorry for the kid that got smacked. It’s sad that he feels the need to get attention from his peers in such a self-destructive way.

 

[D.Cobb]

I have during the course of training managed to wobble a few of my training partners. I figure when it gets real, that's all I need to do. If I want to go full KO then I just need to go a little bit harder.

Yes I am a member of KI, but that's because I can't get the "kyusho" training that I require anywhere else that's local. I have told my instructor right from the word go, if I reach a level where I am required to put someone out completely, then I won't go that far.

It is my honest opinion, that to knock someone unconcious, is to take control of their life, even if just for a short time. I cannot justify, to myself, that this is OK just to prove to someone else that I can do it.

I also believe that knocking people out cold, is very dangerous no matter how softly you do it.

I agree that these clips don't truely showcase, what some of these people can do. In most cases, what we see on the net is just blunt force trauma. there is a clip out there that shows, you can teach a monkey to do that.

The biggest advantage I see with the way that KI train, is that you develop an extremely high level of targetting. You find openings that you don't normally see, and you find yourself using actual kata moves to fight.

--Dave :asian:

 

[RRouuselot]

1) Yes I am a member of KI, but that's because I can't get the "kyusho" training that I require anywhere else that's local.

2) It is my honest opinion, that to knock someone unconcious, is to take control of their life, even if just for a short time. I cannot justify, to myself, that this is OK just to prove to someone else that I can do it. I also believe that knocking people out cold, is very dangerous no matter how softly you do it.

3) there is a clip out there that shows, you can teach a monkey to do that.

4) The biggest advantage I see with the way that KI train, is that you develop an extremely high level of targetting. You find openings that you don't normally see, and you find yourself using actual kata moves to fight.

--Dave :asian:

1) Hopefully that situation will be rectified



2) ….and lose control of yours…….litigation is still pretty rampant in the west, isn’t it?



3) I have that one! It’s funny as hell.



4) I am afraid I have to disagree with ya on this one Dave. From what I see on those mpegs, and the few KI people I have met in real life it looks more like a good way to develop bad habits. As I mentioned before the opening the guy that was supposed to be defending made you could drive a truck through.

Not to mention, the slowness of the strikes they deliver. I counted between the strikes on one of the mpegs and it was 1-1,000…strike…..2-1,000…strike…..3-1,000 strike.

I seriously do not think they go slow for demo or instructional purposes…..I think they are thinking about the next move…..you can actually see them thinking about it on some of them.

To have any effect, strikes should be done…bam, bam, bam. Non-stop, rapid succession.

My teacher said years ago that if “someone throw 1 ball you catch, 2 balls you catch, but 3 balls same time you no can catch”………just something to think about.

 

[Simon Curran]

I know this doesn't quite fit the requirement of attacker actually attacking, but it does show a more realistic knockout response:

http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/fightclub-home.mpeg

Sorry for saying this, but that is not what I consider martial arts, that i just plain stupidity.

 

[wave]

First off I don’t feel I HAVE to make an mpeg for anything. Secondly, I am not really even sure why you would ask this question since it would be painfully obvious to anyone that has been reading this thread what criteria would have to be met.

I know you don't have to.

• The “attacker” would actually have to do some sort of attack, not necessarily at speed but fast enough to get the general idea of the technique’s effectiveness.

Just like all the attacks on my BAR Tape. Inc the pre-emptive attacks. Just like the way we train.

• As I said before, not everything has to be a “KO”, or what you guys are referring to as “kyusho”.

See, there you go again, lumping me into the same bracket as someone else. I do not use the term Kyusho.

Like I said, we probably agree on more than is obvious. But it is difficult when you keep applying the same assumptions you have of KI to me. There is a MASSIVE difference between what we do.

I notice from having a quick scan at your previous posts, that you like to "wind people up" a bit and also to call BS on what you consider unrealistic MA.

There were several questions asked of you ref your training etc that I could not find answers to. So, if you can either answer or post a link to a previous answer I could not find I would appreciate that.

One person asked you about the difference between atemi and Kyusho, they gave their opinion you said "not even close" and gave no further comment. Please advise the difference.

I know several people that have been to Oyata seminars and have seen some clips of him. In those clips he K.O'd a standing uke. At the seminar he k.o'd standing uke's. Why is it ok for him to do this as a DEMO of the techniques effectiveness, but not others? PLUS, he hit them hard! By the way, I do not believe in K.O'ing anyone at a seminar to show why things work. No DEMO is worth the possible detriment of your training partners health and safety.

I fully understand your continuing quest for more realism in the PP world so as to speak. It has been something I have pushed for the last 6 years or so. To push for realism is great. To put others down or lump others into the same boat, with no real knowledge of what they do should not be a part of your crusade.

You also mentioned the incorrect useage of TCM terminology and "science". Do you agree that to use the point names as a point of reference for where to attack is valid?

You mentioned that people who find a non-responder are using the wrong type of attack to the wrong point. I disagree entirely. Why on earth would you need to use a certain type of attack and certain hand position to attack a weak area of the body? Just hit it, real hard. There is no way you can pick and choose "types of strike" in a real fight. That is just not realistic

Regards

Russell

 

[MJS]

"THAT is exactly what I was thinking. How can being KOed by using these points on a regular basis be at all healthy? Perhaps some MT members with knowledge in TCM could enlighten?" Posted by Upnorthkyosha

I don't know a thing about TCM but I do know a bit about the law. If these KO's are entirely bogus, no harm done. If they are at all real, somebody is going to get hurt. Striking an unprotected neck or eye will, some day, go wrong, I fear. When it does, a lawsuit will follow. The trial won't take long and the outcome won't be pretty.
Rendering people unconscious, for any reason, is risky. To do it as part of a "demonstration" or sales pitch is down right foolish. Today's willing student is tomorrow's plaintiff. Good luck.
__________________

I too, often question how healthy it can be to repeatedly KO someone. Now, I'm not a Dr. or PP expert, so I'd be interested in hearing from someone who can explain the medical effects on this.

Mike

 

[RRouuselot]

• As I said before, not everything has to be a “KO”, or what you guys are referring to as “kyusho”.

See, there you go again, lumping me into the same bracket as someone else. I do not use the term Kyusho.


Russell

Did I mention your name in that group? I think no......I made that statement in the same post as my reply to you.....that's all. Don't get so paranoid/

Since you aren't really bothering to read my posts carefully I feel no need to read yours and didn't read anything past the above statement.


maybe when you take the time to actually read my posts I will inturn read yours.......

 

[The Kai]

Well, KI has guys in Milwaukee, Wisconsin and Flora, Illinois. Not exactly in the Chicago area, but nearby.

Actually I'm here in Milwaukee!
Todd