Police shoot 12 year old with bean bag round

[jks9199]

I came across this elsewhere. Quick summary: Disorderly kids on a Portland commuter train. Portland PD officers respond, and try to take a 12 year girl into custody for trespass after being banned. She bucks; some accounts say she struck one of the cops. Cop on scene has a bean bag shotgun... and uses it at close or contact range, shooting her in the thigh. She is not hospitalized. Police chief backs the cop somewhat, wanting to put him on a desk job; commissioner overrules the chief and suspends the cop -- who was already under investigation or scrutiny for another excessive force complaint.

News accounts:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2009/11/portland_officer_suspend_after.html (has videos)
http://www.kptv.com/news/21713828/detail.html

I can't find a way to justify this one... The bean bag round just seems a bit of overkill for the circumstances. I'd be 100% behind the use of a Taser, and obviously some force was called for...

 

[Omar B]

Really? Had to shoot a 12 year old girl? Couldn't restrain her?

Even after reading the story there's still a lot of detail left out. Did he know how old she was, maybe she was big for her age. Could he have used less brutal methods? I'm quite sure a grown man should be able to restrain a 12 year old (and this goes back to how big she was I guess).

It's a shame it happened and nobody's gonna look good coming out of this. I'm just glad it was a bean bag and not a bullet.

 

[SensibleManiac]

You're OK with the taser but not the bean bag????
The taser can kill, as evidence by a man who was tasered and died here in Canada recently not to mention other occasions, especially on a 12 year old.
She was bean bagged in the leg and didn't have to go to the hospital.
She was banned from the train before, I say bag her!
Too many teens get away with crap today with nothing, she wasn't hurt so too bad, she had it coming.
Maybe she'll think twice.

 

[SensibleManiac]

I just watched the video, 12 year old???
She looked like a full grown, (overgrown) woman who was behaving like an animal, definitely bag her!
She didn't look or act 12 to me.
The only drawback was that there were several cops and together could have subdued her more easily, but the shot to the leg did stop her cold so good!
Don't forget she wasn't hurt and didn't have to go to the hospital.

 

[shesulsa]

We've seen the security footage over and over again. The girl resists quite a bit, does swing at one officer, but they had her on the ground (though she was still bucking and kicking and resisting) and he did shoot her in the thigh at *very* close range - had to be less than three feet away, he was standing over her, essentially.

Interestingly, this did end her struggling and the officers who held her down made her *stand up* ... and then ... *lie face down* to cuff her.

It was *weird.*

All that said, though, she was putting up as much of a fight as she could and this girl is almost as tall as the officers and is no skinny mini - she's grown for 12. I'd tend to support what he did and am glad to see officers coming out and demonstrating to stand up for their need for force.

I'm uneducated about the force given the range here. I'm not sure how far away you're supposed to be with the bean bags. I can't remember if I've seen officers with those bruises after a training course or not.

Does anyone here know more about bean bag rounds and distance, etcetera?

 

[jks9199]

You're OK with the taser but not the bean bag????
The taser can kill, as evidence by a man who was tasered and died here in Canada recently not to mention other occasions, especially on a 12 year old.
She was bean bagged in the leg and didn't have to go to the hospital.
She was banned from the train before, I say bag her!
Too many teens get away with crap today with nothing, she wasn't hurt so too bad, she had it coming.
Maybe she'll think twice.

While Taser has recently suggested avoiding shots to the chest for the very small chance of a cardiac event -- the Taser is very unlikely to cause serious injury, and would have obtained compliance almost immediately. The vast majority of the deaths (yes, I admit they have happened) that have occurred with the Taser's use have been paired with pre-existing conditions and/or drug abuse.

As to the extent of injuries inflicted by the bean bag round -- I don't know. In my department, and those with which I am familiar, they're placed at the upper end of the less-lethal options. In all honesty, given the range, I'm surprised that there weren't more serious injuries.

 

[KenpoTex]

From the video, it appears that after she struck/struck at the officer, he initially put her on the ground face down. At that point, she rolled to her back and began flailing around trying to strike him again. It was at this point that the other officer bean-bagged her.

I personally see no problem with the use of force in this situation. It had the effect of allowing them to immediately subdue her without further injury to her or to themselves...something that would not have been guaranteed if they had subdued her without the use of the bean-bag. As it is now, she's gonna have a bruise for a while and that's it.

I think what has people's panties in a knot is that she was 12. I guess my take on that is that, regardless of your age, if you want to play by "big boy rules," you're going to have to deal with the consequences of your actions. The lesson here is that if you assault a police officer, your day is not going to end well. Frankly, if I didn't know her age from the article, I wouldn't have guessed she was that young. She certainly didn't look, or fight, like your average 12-year-old.

I guess the main question is going to be whether the officer's actions were according to policy. My initial reaction based purely on what the video shows is that they're hanging him out to dry.

 

[Gordon Nore]

It's not for me to comment on the actions of the officers, but kids that age can be deceptively large. I worked in a middle school for three years, and there certainly were kids that I would have taken for older.

 

[KELLYG]

I am sorry but if you are stupid enough strike a police officer there is going to be consequences. A bean bag to the leg, seriously it could have been much worse than that.

 

[jks9199]

From the video, it appears that after she struck/struck at the officer, he initially put her on the ground face down. At that point, she rolled to her back and began flailing around trying to strike him again. It was at this point that the other officer bean-bagged her.

I personally see no problem with the use of force in this situation. It had the effect of allowing them to immediately subdue her without further injury to her or to themselves...something that would not have been guaranteed if they had subdued her without the use of the bean-bag. As it is now, she's gonna have a bruise for a while and that's it.

I think what has people's panties in a knot is that she was 12. I guess my take on that is that, regardless of your age, if you want to play by "big boy rules," you're going to have to deal with the consequences of your actions. The lesson here is that if you assault a police officer, your day is not going to end well. Frankly, if I didn't know her age from the article, I wouldn't have guessed she was that young. She certainly didn't look, or fight, like your average 12-year-old.

I guess the main question is going to be whether the officer's actions were according to policy. My initial reaction based purely on what the video shows is that they're hanging him out to dry.

It's not the use of force in general that I'm personally uncomfortable with; it's the use of the bean bag round in particular. Given the nature of the call they were on (disorderly crowd), I have no problem with having the bean bag gun present. The girl was resisting; some accounts say she was punching the officers -- the video is unclear. Even if just pulling away, she was resisting. Force was justified.

But was the force used reasonable and appropriate to the resistance being encountered? Was a bean bag round really an appropriate choice for one of three officers present to employ against an unarmed person, no matter how old or how big? I'm just not so sure about that... I can tell you that I've arrested plenty of resisting people of all sizes and ages and never needed them shot with a bean bag.

 

[Ray B]

I work at a pre K thru 8th grade school. I have two 12 year olds that are over 6 foot tall. One is about 200 lbs and the other 225. When confronted on the street, you size-up a threat by it's appearence, not age. A pissed off tween with a weapon is still dangerous. I know this one was weaponless, but still a threat. As stated earlier, there was no damage so I see no problem.

 

[MJS]

I agree...I think the thing that concerns alot of people is the fact that the beanbag had to be used. as its been said, just because the kid is 12, doesnt mean that she can easily be controlled. In addition, while it may seem 'excessive' until we know that departments use of force procedures, we can't safely judge whether or not too much was used or if it was well within their guidelines.

There have been a few incidents with the dept. that I dispatch for, in which the beadbag gun was used. However, those were large crowd cases. For the majority of 1 on 1 incidents, its usually been OC, a taser or K9.

It'll be interesting to see how this turns out.

 

[grydth]

These are always a case to case call, and are subjective.

My daughter told me about kids like this in her old school, who'd fight like animals even when police and security came. They would have to literally pull them apart, and some of the injuries were frightening (As a side note, why doesn't "zero tolerance" ever seem to rid the school halls of these types?)

I don't agree with cops using force on those who aren't dangerous, as in the mom tasered in from of her kids near Syracuse NY last Winter.... but when faced with humans behaving like rabid animals, I find it hard to second guess police using nonlethal responses.

I wonder how many police departments actively train in any MA... After watching the Rodney King video, my thoughts were 'those officers sure weren't trained very well.' How many of us have had instructors who, single handedly, could have gotten ole Rodney into a cruiser a lot more quickly and without all the violence? A good chin na would have brought many like this around quickly.

Of course, had the police been injured, it wouldn't have even been "news", would it?

 

[MJS]

These are always a case to case call, and are subjective.

My daughter told me about kids like this in her old school, who'd fight like animals even when police and security came. They would have to literally pull them apart, and some of the injuries were frightening (As a side note, why doesn't "zero tolerance" ever seem to rid the school halls of these types?)

I don't agree with cops using force on those who aren't dangerous, as in the mom tasered in from of her kids near Syracuse NY last Winter.... but when faced with humans behaving like rabid animals, I find it hard to second guess police using nonlethal responses.

I wonder how many police departments actively train in any MA... After watching the Rodney King video, my thoughts were 'those officers sure weren't trained very well.' How many of us have had instructors who, single handedly, could have gotten ole Rodney into a cruiser a lot more quickly and without all the violence? A good chin na would have brought many like this around quickly.

Of course, had the police been injured, it wouldn't have even been "news", would it?

Agreed. I think, in lieu of everything else that needs to be crammed into academy training, empty hand SD, restraining methods, etc. are often not focused on as in depth as they should be.

I remember when I worked in Corrections. I used to cringe at the empty hand stuff. I used to think to myself, "Holy ****! I'm gonna get hurt or worse if I tried this stuff." And it was then that I was thankful that I had my MA training to fall back on.

 

[KenpoTex]

But was the force used reasonable and appropriate to the resistance being encountered? Was a bean bag round really an appropriate choice for one of three officers present to employ against an unarmed person, no matter how old or how big? I'm just not so sure about that... I can tell you that I've arrested plenty of resisting people of all sizes and ages and never needed them shot with a bean bag.

Why would it have been inappropriate against an unarmed person? IMO, if the subject had been armed, a less-lethal response would have been neither appropriate nor reasonable.

I guess my take on it is that I can see how the use of a bean-bag on a 12-year-old girl may provoke some visceral reactions from many people because it just doesn't "seem" right. However, I have to wonder -based on the fact that she was fighting for all she was worth- (going by what the video shows), how badly might she or the officers have been injured if they had continued to attempt to restrain her with empty-hand methods alone. Should they have just "dogpiled" her and smashed her into the ground? Should they have used an ASP on her? AFAIC, once she took a swing at the officer, he would have been perfectly justified in cold-cocking the **** out of her...would that have been a more palatable outcome?

 

[jks9199]

Why would it have been inappropriate against an unarmed person? IMO, if the subject had been armed, a less-lethal response would have been neither appropriate nor reasonable.

I guess my take on it is that I can see how the use of a bean-bag on a 12-year-old girl may provoke some visceral reactions from many people because it just doesn't "seem" right. However, I have to wonder -based on the fact that she was fighting for all she was worth- (going by what the video shows), how badly might she or the officers have been injured if they had continued to attempt to restrain her with empty-hand methods alone. Should they have just "dogpiled" her and smashed her into the ground? Should they have used an ASP on her? AFAIC, once she took a swing at the officer, he would have been perfectly justified in cold-cocking the **** out of her...would that have been a more palatable outcome?

You can't simply say "she was resisting, so anything from a punch in the jaw to bean bags was OK." I don't know the department's policies, nor do I know how he justified using the bean bag. If he was within policy, or justified it -- he's fine, and I'll back him up in that. As should his chief and commissioner.

But they had a 3-on-1 situation. They had already taken the girl to the ground. Jumping to the upper end of the less-than-lethal force options is going to have to be justified. And I have a hard time figuring out a justification based on what's been presented. Were the girl to have been trying for one of the officers's guns, or turn out to have had a knife that became visible during the struggle, it'd be a different question. But I think that those details would probably have come out by now.

On a gut level -- I want to back the cop. But right now I'm just not comfortable saying that I can; I'm not condemning or damning him, either. He and his agency have room to clear this up and I hope that an investigation does clear him. I take the use-of-force scrutiny he may be under from other incidents with a grain of salt, because I know of one agency that assumes if you have three use of force incidents in a certain time frame -- even if all three were clearcut cases of assault on an officer by felons with a history of violence! -- you must have a problem.

 

[Carol]

You're OK with the taser but not the bean bag????
The taser can kill, as evidence by a man who was tasered and died here in Canada recently not to mention other occasions, especially on a 12 year old.

Bean bag rounds can kill (and have killed) too. Perhaps they are more socially acceptable to use because they have a have a warm fuzzy name that makes people think of a kids toy.

If less-lethal force was needed, given the choice between a device that delivers an EMP pulse at (I think) less than 1% of the output used in medical applications, and a device that fires 9mm shot pellets wrapped in cloth, I'd rather see the former being used.

 

[SensibleManiac]

To respond to a few posts.
First off they aren't 9mm pelets, its a bag filled with sand.
Hurts yes, but to the torso you have to be 10 feet away, to the extremeties (arms and legs), it's basically at the officers discretion. (It doesn't matter, point blank is fine especially against someone who's struggling and you don't want to miss or hit them accidentally somewhere more dangerous.
It's extremely rare that a bean bag to the arm or leg will cause a serious injury, scare the s**t out of someone and hurt, yes.
But kill, to the arms and legs almost impossible.

 

[Carol]

Ooops...sorry...I was remembering wrong. Its not 9mm pellets, its #9 lead shot which is more like 2mm in size.

 

[MJS]

Bean bag rounds can kill (and have killed) too. Perhaps they are more socially acceptable to use because they have a have a warm fuzzy name that makes people think of a kids toy.

If less-lethal force was needed, given the choice between a device that delivers an EMP pulse at (I think) less than 1% of the output used in medical applications, and a device that fires 9mm shot pellets wrapped in cloth, I'd rather see the former being used.

Are there any cases and/or links that will show that people have died from a beanbag hit? Not sure where the person was hit that would cause death, but a hit to the body should not cause death.