Police defend fatal shooting of UW student

celtic_crippler

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What's amazing is that people want the police to use a taser against deadly force. There are no words....ridiculous...ludicrous...outrageous... none that describe how utterly non-sensical that line of thinking is.

All this is just a case of natural selection in action. Put the idiot down for a Darwin Award, pat the police on the back, and move on.
 

jks9199

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What bugs me is that the police have to "defend" their actions. WHAT? People always want to use hindsight into their judgement of police actions.

Let's look at what the police KNOW.

1) Shots fired call on New Year's Eve on/near college campus.
2) Rifle pointed at them when they challenge the suspect
3) Suspect refuses to put it down and points it at them again

Now, we get the media talking about how he was an honor student and a history buff with his vintage WWII rifle that he collected, AND it was only loaded with blanks. I don't know about the rest of the LEO's on board, but I have NEVER gotten or heard over the scanner a shot's fired call that told us to slow up, that it was only blanks. Blanks go "boom" and sound like the real thing.

Chris Rock should do another video on "How Not to Get Shot by the Police". RULE #1 "Don't break the law", RULE #2 "Do what the police tell you to do". It's not rocket science here.

Really, how drunk do you have to be when armed men are pointing guns at you and telling you to put yours down, that you think "I think I'm just gonna point this here rifle at them for kicks and grins, cuz it'll be funny" ?
Gun or gun-like object, refusing to comply... And the person gets a high-velocity introduction to small chunks of lead.

I don't care what it's loaded with, because if I give the person the time to show me -- if it's got "real" bullets, I'm dead! (And, if things go wrong in the right way, blanks can get me dead, too... or blinded, giving the bad guy access to my gun with real bullets!)
 

sgtmac_46

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We seriously need to make use-of-force continuum a subject in school. For real.
That might go a long ways toward clearing up some really stupid assumptions people carry around....though even as a young and dumb kid, I instinctively understood that if I pointed a gun at a police officer, he'd shoot me.....what is wrong with those people who fail to understand that point?
 

sgtmac_46

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The barrel of the gun was pointed at a police officer.

Do you think the level of outcry would be the same he barrel of a gun was pointed at a more politically correct minority, such a civilian that was a black woman or a gay man? I think there would be less outcry in the latter case, and that bothers me deeply.

A death threat is a death threat, and a human being is a human being...regardless of whether one likes the person (or the type of person) that is on the receiving end of the threat.

More to the point this kid HAD live ammunition.....even if he was firing blanks, the gun was capable of lethal use and he had live ammunition in his apartment. The rifle in question, the Kar98 carbine, is a battle rifle that fires a full powered rifle round, that was an imminent threat to ANYONE in that apartment complex. Had he fired a shot, that round was capable of penetrating numerous walls and killing anyone it struck, not just the officers.

The officers should get a medal and that should be the end of it!
 

sgtmac_46

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As to why so many times. In this forum it's been repeatedly said that one shot just won't always do it.
7 or 8 shots against a man armed with a battle rifle is pretty darned restrained and reasonable considering there were at least two officers firing.
 

sgtmac_46

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What's amazing is that people want the police to use a taser against deadly force. There are no words....ridiculous...ludicrous...outrageous... none that describe how utterly non-sensical that line of thinking is.

All this is just a case of natural selection in action. Put the idiot down for a Darwin Award, pat the police on the back, and move on.
Ignorance is a common disease. When this comes up in person, I always invite folks to 'Show Me' what they think they'd do in a similar situation......perhaps they have a unique and ingenuous method of dealing with a man armed with a battle rifle.......but usually they just realize they are full of crap!
 

sgtmac_46

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Gun or gun-like object, refusing to comply... And the person gets a high-velocity introduction to small chunks of lead.

I don't care what it's loaded with, because if I give the person the time to show me -- if it's got "real" bullets, I'm dead! (And, if things go wrong in the right way, blanks can get me dead, too... or blinded, giving the bad guy access to my gun with real bullets!)
And by many standards a man armed with a Kar98 carbine is better armed than the responding officers.
 
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Andy Moynihan

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What's amazing is that people want the police to use a taser against deadly force. There are no words....ridiculous...ludicrous...outrageous... none that describe how utterly non-sensical that line of thinking is.


All together now, class, let us recite our mantra of understanding:

"A Taser is not a weapon, it is a one-shot restraining tool".
 

Cryozombie

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All together now, class, let us recite our mantra of understanding:

"A Taser is not a weapon, it is a one-shot restraining tool".

Tell that to the State of Illinois who classifies them as a "Deadly Weapon"... at least as far as Civilian Use is concerned.
 

sgtmac_46

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All together now, class, let us recite our mantra of understanding:

"A Taser is not a weapon, it is a one-shot restraining tool".
It is a weapon......just not a lethal one.......certainly not a suitable weapon to use against a man armed with a K98! I'd reprimand any officer who attempted that and lived!
 

sgtmac_46

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Tell that to the State of Illinois who classifies them as a "Deadly Weapon"... at least as far as Civilian Use is concerned.
Wow! That is truly asinine, even for the State of Illinois.
 

Carol

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They're just plain illegal in MA (except for LEOs)
 

grydth

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What they don't mention in this story is that this same guy had the SAME incident occur 2 years ago, the police had confiscated the weapon, the dad argued for it to be returned and GAVE IT BACK TO HIS SON!

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008583971_webshooting02m.html


This article features the mother wanting to know why the police shot her son. If the parents want to know why their son is dead, they should start by looking in their bathroom, just above the sink.

Why would the police respond in force in a college community when witnesses report guns and loud sounds? Ummm - Virginia Tech, maybe?

After the rifle was confiscated once, persistent dad gets the rifle back - - - did he even then teach junior anything about safe firearms handling? Isn't the answer apparent?

Never mind the place was full of militaria, no parent and no professor apparently ever taught this honor student the true terrible meaning behind any of it. Wish I could have shared my Feldpost letters marked," Returned to sender - Addressee fallen for Greater Germany!".... or the volumes of death notices for so many soldiers who (supposedly) "died a hero's death in Russia"...... but they let this kid live a Nazi fantasy dream, never letting him know the fates of the original dreamers and their victims. Unpardonable!

Apartment full of alcohol and guns?! Who should have taught him about what a fatal mix that is? Anybody ever teach junior about interacting with the police? Do you have to be post grad, perhaps, to realize what a terminal action pointing a gun at a cop is?

I do feel terrible for two people - the cops who had to deal with this and use their weapons.

The questioners of the police here need at ask some hard questions of themselves.
 

Steve

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This article features the mother wanting to know why the police shot her son. If the parents want to know why their son is dead, they should start by looking in their bathroom, just above the sink.

Why would the police respond in force in a college community when witnesses report guns and loud sounds? Ummm - Virginia Tech, maybe?

After the rifle was confiscated once, persistent dad gets the rifle back - - - did he even then teach junior anything about safe firearms handling? Isn't the answer apparent?

Never mind the place was full of militaria, no parent and no professor apparently ever taught this honor student the true terrible meaning behind any of it. Wish I could have shared my Feldpost letters marked," Returned to sender - Addressee fallen for Greater Germany!".... or the volumes of death notices for so many soldiers who (supposedly) "died a hero's death in Russia"...... but they let this kid live a Nazi fantasy dream, never letting him know the fates of the original dreamers and their victims. Unpardonable!

Apartment full of alcohol and guns?! Who should have taught him about what a fatal mix that is? Anybody ever teach junior about interacting with the police? Do you have to be post grad, perhaps, to realize what a terminal action pointing a gun at a cop is?

I do feel terrible for two people - the cops who had to deal with this and use their weapons.

The questioners of the police here need at ask some hard questions of themselves.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. I found that Seattle Times story and the mention of an almost identical situation a few years ago very telling.
 

Carol

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Do you have to be post grad, perhaps, to realize what a terminal action pointing a gun at a cop is?

No. You need an education that supports the use of analytics, which is sadly failing based on our declining performance in math and science....and you need parents with a freaking backbone that demonstrate actions/results/consequences and instill discipline instead of giving their widdle pwecious schnookums everything he wants just cuz he wanna have it.

Not that I'm opinionated or anything :angel:
 

Twin Fist

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the parents need a good slap across the back of the head for having the guts to ask WHY thier son is dead.

yeah yeah i know, emotional heartbreak blah blah blah tragedy blah blah blah

he got shot for being STUPID

education begins at home
 

KenpoTex

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chlorine in the gene-pool as far as I'm concerned...

From the bit quoted in the OP, he apparently pointed the rifle at them more than once and only on the second time did they shoot him...I think they should have shot him the first time.

As to all the public outcry when this type of thing happens, I agree with most of you about the lack of understanding re. the force continuum. I also think that most people don't realize how rarely LEOs use deadly force compared to the number of times when they'd be justified in doing so. During a handgun qual. a while back, one of the firearms instructors from the local PD told me that their officers only use deadly force in 7% of the situations where it would have been justified (of course, to me that means that in 93% of the situations, they unecessarily endangered themselves or someone else by not shooting someone who needed to be shot...).
 

Rich Parsons

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People with Alcohol will do lots of stupid things.

They are not thinking or not thinking well ( at best ).


On security one night, the police came into the parking lot and had lite up a car and then waited for more back up. They had the people in the car stay in the car until sufficent back up was present with drawn weapons they got one person out at gun point at a time and on the ground and hand cuffed. (* Stolen vehicle - reported under age drinking as well as weapons (firearms) involved *)

The point here is that I was trying to keep other people from coming into the parking lot with their vehicle. While walking up to one who was already in the parkign lot and just sitting and too close and the police were obviously nervous, I told them to leave. As I did someone pulled in. Two couples. The guys in the front were real drunk. They pulled right up behind the officers. I walked over, and told them to leave. The guy in the driver's seat reached for a gun while he was yelling at me, "oh yeah what you goign to do about it." I stepped back of the car to make it harder for him to bring anything on line, and stated. "Nothing, the police right there are going to shoot you, and as they were already hear when you pulled , I most likely will not even have to any paperwork." An officer turned around and started to come on line with the vehicle and me. I raised my hands, and the driver drove off. The officer smiled, and I stated, I am doing my best to keep the area clear for you. He went back to the bad guys, who were all smart enough to get out of the car and follow directions (* no weapons found *) and not get shot.
 

shesulsa

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There are a few things that we must accept here:

1. College students to REALLY stupid things.

2. College students drink which leads to #1.

3. Most people don't feel connected with the police and, hence, don't understand the connection between this young man's stupid actions and the officers' needs to terminate the threat.

4. There will always be people asking 'why.' This doesn't necessarily make them stupid, it makes them ignorant and yes, the two can be exclusive of each other.

5. Almost any mother who loses her child in this manner will always ask Why in a public fashion and there Will be an outcry, justified or not.

I pray for his family, because there's a good chance that one day they'll get it. And I'll pray for the cops who had to do the deed. It can't be a pleasant thing to have to end a young man's life when he just thought he was having a good time.
 
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