Police defend fatal shooting of UW student

Carol

Crazy like a...
MT Mentor
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jan 16, 2006
Messages
20,311
Reaction score
541
Location
NH
There are a few things that we must accept here:

1. College students to REALLY stupid things.

2. College students drink which leads to #1.

3. Most people don't feel connected with the police and, hence, don't understand the connection between this young man's stupid actions and the officers' needs to terminate the threat.

4. There will always be people asking 'why.' This doesn't necessarily make them stupid, it makes them ignorant and yes, the two can be exclusive of each other.

5. Almost any mother who loses her child in this manner will always ask Why in a public fashion and there Will be an outcry, justified or not.

I pray for his family, because there's a good chance that one day they'll get it. And I'll pray for the cops who had to do the deed. It can't be a pleasant thing to have to end a young man's life when he just thought he was having a good time.

When I was a freshman, my school had (and still has) a very large number of students from Japan. That year, an extremely popular (and somewhat famous) student committed suicide. Most people here on MT probably know enough about Asian culture to know how much that devastated the other Japanese students. The rest of us that weren't Japanese didn't take it too well either. I don't think there are words to describe the emptiness and pain that comes from an unexpected death - and knowing that it didn't have to happen. :(

Many times people cry out when they are in pain and grieving. It is natural. But I would hate to see the outcries of grief result in further shackles on the police when the police did not do anything wrong. Many times it is the thin blue line that prevents us from other deaths that don't have to happen. I don't want the line to get any thinner. :asian:
 

sgtmac_46

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
4,753
Reaction score
189
This article features the mother wanting to know why the police shot her son. If the parents want to know why their son is dead, they should start by looking in their bathroom, just above the sink.

Why would the police respond in force in a college community when witnesses report guns and loud sounds? Ummm - Virginia Tech, maybe?

After the rifle was confiscated once, persistent dad gets the rifle back - - - did he even then teach junior anything about safe firearms handling? Isn't the answer apparent?

Never mind the place was full of militaria, no parent and no professor apparently ever taught this honor student the true terrible meaning behind any of it. Wish I could have shared my Feldpost letters marked," Returned to sender - Addressee fallen for Greater Germany!".... or the volumes of death notices for so many soldiers who (supposedly) "died a hero's death in Russia"...... but they let this kid live a Nazi fantasy dream, never letting him know the fates of the original dreamers and their victims. Unpardonable!

Apartment full of alcohol and guns?! Who should have taught him about what a fatal mix that is? Anybody ever teach junior about interacting with the police? Do you have to be post grad, perhaps, to realize what a terminal action pointing a gun at a cop is?

I do feel terrible for two people - the cops who had to deal with this and use their weapons.

The questioners of the police here need at ask some hard questions of themselves.
Ultimately, the equation was simple......Alcohol + Stupidity often ='s dead!

In this case it involved stupidly displaying a gun.....in many cases kids like this guy die just as violently.....but the mechanism of death is a car, or some other violent negligent death that results when dumb kids drink booze!

Booze is probably the number one precipitating cause of violent death in America!
 

sgtmac_46

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
4,753
Reaction score
189
No. You need an education that supports the use of analytics, which is sadly failing based on our declining performance in math and science....and you need parents with a freaking backbone that demonstrate actions/results/consequences and instill discipline instead of giving their widdle pwecious schnookums everything he wants just cuz he wanna have it.

Not that I'm opinionated or anything :angel:
Yeah, apparently our elementary and secondary schools are failing to teach basic cause and effect in this country......there's a lot of folks walking around with some pretty silly notions that actions do not create predictable reactions! :banghead:
 

sgtmac_46

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
4,753
Reaction score
189
chlorine in the gene-pool as far as I'm concerned...

From the bit quoted in the OP, he apparently pointed the rifle at them more than once and only on the second time did they shoot him...I think they should have shot him the first time.

As to all the public outcry when this type of thing happens, I agree with most of you about the lack of understanding re. the force continuum. I also think that most people don't realize how rarely LEOs use deadly force compared to the number of times when they'd be justified in doing so. During a handgun qual. a while back, one of the firearms instructors from the local PD told me that their officers only use deadly force in 7% of the situations where it would have been justified (of course, to me that means that in 93% of the situations, they unecessarily endangered themselves or someone else by not shooting someone who needed to be shot...).
ALL very excellent and accurate points! We aren't shooting as many folks as we should be shooting! That's a dirty little truth that won't make the bleeding heart folks happy.
 

jarrod

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
2,172
Reaction score
96
Location
Denver
please people, let's put the "u" back in ed-u-cation. take a moment to educate yourself about dealing with the police. this helpful video is very instructive. warning for some language


jf
 
Last edited by a moderator:

arnisador

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 28, 2001
Messages
44,573
Reaction score
456
Location
Terre Haute, IN
chlorine in the gene-pool as far as I'm concerned...

Lots of people do something stupid and dangerous at some point in there lives. That the police were justified doesn't mean this isn't a tragedy. And with a student at the U. of W., the dismissive Dennis Leary line doesn't apply--this kid, acting stupidly while drunk, could've gone on to do very important things. I've worked with some very well-regarded scientists and most of them drank (or more) in college.

The shooting sounds well-justified. When someone drinks and drives and dies, I figure that they should have known better--but I can still empathize with their family, who knew them from childhood and have a much broader view of the whole human being.

Chlorine for the gene pool? Eliminate every physician/surgeon in your town who got drunk in college and choose from what's left. Eliminate every teacher in your schools who smoked weed in college and only let your kids be taught by the remainder. College professors? I didn't drink or do drugs in college. That's one.

People make mistakes. They must live (or die) with the consequences, but your comment is much too harsh.
 

shesulsa

Columbia Martial Arts Academy
MT Mentor
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
May 27, 2004
Messages
27,182
Reaction score
486
Location
Not BC, Not DC
Police are the guardians of humanity ... don't lose it; it makes your job less palatable.

:asian:
 
OP
Archangel M

Archangel M

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,555
Reaction score
154
It can't be a pleasant thing to have to end a young man's life when he just thought he was having a good time.

I agree with your post. "There but for the grace of god go I" and all.

The thing that makes me wonder about this situation though. "Having A Good Time"..dressed as a WWII German soldier firing a rifle..on college grounds (no rules against weapon possession on campus?)..with a gun that was taken by police in the past and RETURNED BY HIS FATHER???

I think the kid got his decision making ability..sober and intoxicated...via upbringing.
 

shesulsa

Columbia Martial Arts Academy
MT Mentor
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
May 27, 2004
Messages
27,182
Reaction score
486
Location
Not BC, Not DC
I agree with your post. "There but for the grace of god go I" and all.

The thing that makes me wonder about this situation though. "Having A Good Time"..dressed as a WWII German soldier firing a rifle..on college grounds (no rules against weapon possession on campus?)..with a gun that was taken by police in the past and RETURNED BY HIS FATHER???

I think the kid got his decision making ability..sober and intoxicated...via upbringing.

I'm not defending his actions ... nor his parents. The stupidity factor is undeniable. But the boy did think he was having a good time ... in that warped, ill-fostered, booze-soaked brain of his. I'm sure he didn't feel a thing, in fact. If I speak on possibility, I'll anger you and I'll miscommunicate my intent and then the thread will be spun into something else.

The boy ... *sigh* ... should have been shot. And I'm sure you'll forgive my humanity in lamenting the sadness. And I'll forgive you if you can't because it would have been your job too.

No beef here, daddyo. Let's not start one.
 

jarrod

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
2,172
Reaction score
96
Location
Denver
i'll see if i can simplify here:

boy needed shootin'.

that sucks.

jf
 
OP
Archangel M

Archangel M

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,555
Reaction score
154
I'm not defending his actions ... nor his parents. The stupidity factor is undeniable. But the boy did think he was having a good time ... in that warped, ill-fostered, booze-soaked brain of his. I'm sure he didn't feel a thing, in fact. If I speak on possibility, I'll anger you and I'll miscommunicate my intent and then the thread will be spun into something else.

The boy ... *sigh* ... should have been shot. And I'm sure you'll forgive my humanity in lamenting the sadness. And I'll forgive you if you can't because it would have been your job too.

No beef here, daddyo. Let's not start one.

I didnt say you were. *Sigh* Can I not even agree with you without you thinking Im "dissing" you?

I said from the begining that this is a tragedy, I just tire of the same media crap that you read each and every time these things happen..why did the cops shoot him?..why not taser (unless he was tasered and died...then "why did they taser him")...why not "shoot him in the leg or something?"..."why shoot him so many times?".

I suppose those could be good questions if the shooting was questionable, like in the other shooting being discussed, but in situations like this one they seem like attempts by the media to stir up controversy where its not needed.

Just trying to be conversational.
 
Last edited:

shesulsa

Columbia Martial Arts Academy
MT Mentor
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
May 27, 2004
Messages
27,182
Reaction score
486
Location
Not BC, Not DC
I didnt say you were. *Sigh* Can I not even agree with you without you thinking Im "dissing" you.

Just trying to be conversational.

Ho boy. I didn't think you were dissing me. Mkay?
 

KenpoTex

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Messages
3,001
Reaction score
144
Location
Springfield, Missouri
People make mistakes. They must live (or die) with the consequences, but your comment is much too harsh.

I never said I didn't/couldn't empathize with his family for their loss. However, I have no sympathy for him. As far as I'm concerned, this was just natural selection at work. He pointed a gun at the cops, he got shot...just as it should be.
If expecting people to face the consequences of their own actions and not being broken up over results is "too harsh," so be it.
 

Cryozombie

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 11, 2003
Messages
9,998
Reaction score
206
Yeah, apparently our elementary and secondary schools are failing to teach basic cause and effect in this country......there's a lot of folks walking around with some pretty silly notions that actions do not create predictable reactions! :banghead:

Do you expect any less when you win a trophy for showing up, and get an A for answering 1+1=Chair because at least you tried?

Grr.
 

sgtmac_46

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
4,753
Reaction score
189
Lots of people do something stupid and dangerous at some point in there lives. That the police were justified doesn't mean this isn't a tragedy. And with a student at the U. of W., the dismissive Dennis Leary line doesn't apply--this kid, acting stupidly while drunk, could've gone on to do very important things. I've worked with some very well-regarded scientists and most of them drank (or more) in college.

The shooting sounds well-justified. When someone drinks and drives and dies, I figure that they should have known better--but I can still empathize with their family, who knew them from childhood and have a much broader view of the whole human being.

Chlorine for the gene pool? Eliminate every physician/surgeon in your town who got drunk in college and choose from what's left. Eliminate every teacher in your schools who smoked weed in college and only let your kids be taught by the remainder. College professors? I didn't drink or do drugs in college. That's one.

People make mistakes. They must live (or die) with the consequences, but your comment is much too harsh.
A drunk driver who kills them selves in a single vehicle accident......is a POSITIVE in that they didn't manage to kill someone else!

And comments about it are ultimately irrelevant......folks who die of the consequences of their own actions are solely responsible, regardless of what harsh comment is subsequently made.....the comments are meant to add to the object lesson for the LIVING!
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
22,115
Reaction score
7,685
Location
Covington, WA
Do you expect any less when you win a trophy for showing up, and get an A for answering 1+1=Chair because at least you tried?

Grr.
Based upon my own experiences with myself and my own kids, I always wonder where the hell this stuff actually happens. I was really concerned when my kids started school, but now that my two oldest are in the 6th and 7th grades, I can honestly say that they are receiving a much better education than I did 25 years ago.
 

Sukerkin

Have the courage to speak softly
MT Mentor
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
15,325
Reaction score
493
Location
Staffordshire, England
Different topic tho' really. One worth discussing certainly but not strictly appropriate here.
 

arnisador

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 28, 2001
Messages
44,573
Reaction score
456
Location
Terre Haute, IN
And comments about it are ultimately irrelevant......folks who die of the consequences of their own actions are solely responsible, regardless of what harsh comment is subsequently made.....the comments are meant to add to the object lesson for the LIVING!

Some of these comments detract from the lesson by going overboard. It's one thing to say it's fair, but another thing to say it's good. An habitual drunk driver in a single-car accident isn't quite the same as a drunk college kid. In either case, learning from the tragedy is beneficial but celebrating the death is inappropriate.
 
Top