please tell me about Koryo

[garrisons2]

I'm fired up, as I'm about to learn Koryo after watching the first Dan's perform it for the last couple years, please tell me all you can about it, starting with the significance of the opening move, a diagnonal formation with the hands extending outward. thanks

 

[exile]

I'm fired up, as I'm about to learn Koryo after watching the first Dan's perform it for the last couple years, please tell me all you can about it, starting with the significance of the opening move, a diagnonal formation with the hands extending outward. thanks

Well, for one thing, Koryo originally was a shorter, much more Shotokan-like form which was redesigned by committee some years after the original version, during an era when the Korean TKD directorate was trying very sincerely to distance themselves from the Japanese origins of their art—a trend that culminated eventually in a total revisionist rewriting of KMA history to conceal the foundations of TKD in Japanese Karate. It's quite possible, I think, that the initial movement in Koryo you're describing was deliberately inserted as a kind of declaration that what you're about to see is as un-Japanese as possible—because no Karate kata I've ever seen performed has anything like that move. It wasn't present in the original version of Koryo—see e.g. a very early photo sequence of the moves in that version posted by our member Rob Mclain. My guess is that the significance of that later-edition opening is, 'Japanese origin?? Don't you believe it, mate!'.

 

[garrisons2]

Interesting exile, you seem to always know something about the history, if I may ask, how did you learn the it? I've never asked about the interpretation of the opening move , however extrapolating your historical conext forward could it represent a window of sorts to the Korean TKD way?

 

[exile]

Interesting exile, you seem to always know something about the history, if I may ask, how did you learn the it? I've never asked about the interpretation of the opening move , however extrapolating your historical conext forward could it represent a window of sorts to the Korean TKD way?

Well, I'm no professional historian, but there a lot of good, careful history both 'out there' and in here (i.e., on MartialTalk) and I try to take advantage of it.

So far as the former is concerned, the journals Journal of Asian Martial Arts and Classical Fighting Arts have a number of great articles bearing on KMA history, by Dakin Burdick, Stanley Henning, Manuel Adrogué and others. Here on MT, we have Masters Terry Stoker (terryl965), Rob Mclain (rmclain), David Hughes (Kwan Jang) and a number of others who were in some cases there at almost the beginning, and know, first or close second hand, much of what happened in the critical period between the end of the old Kwan era and the period of rapid sportification of TKD that really hit its stride in the later 1970s and the '80s. I've also benefited greatly (as we all have) from the work of Stuart Anslow (StuartA) and Simon John O'Neil (SJON), whose excellent books on realistic applications of TKD hyungs to street combat situations contain important, clear-eyed, historically well-attested overviews of KMA history. There really is a lot of good stuff out there, if you get in the habit of stripping the deep layers of myth-mongering and self-serving nationalistic propaganda from the TKD story.

There's an interesting thread that was running recently on Koryo, btw—it's where Master McLain's post on the history of Koryo turned up. I started it precisely because I was curious about the kind of thing you're asking about in your own OP...

 

[IcemanSK]

The opening move, as you called it, is simply the joon bee for the form. It's called tong mil gi seogi, or pushing hands stance. I tried to find out more about it from the KKW textbook, but found nothing other than that.

When I first learn Koryo back in 1985, the tong mil gi seogi was very forceful & intense (like a dyanmic tension move). But it's done that way "officially" anymore.

The 1st side kick (in the two double side kick motions) is more of a fake than an actual kick aimed at the knee. The second kick is to the face (according to the textbook dvd).

I wish you all the best in a lifetime of learning this form.

 

[terryl965]

The opening move, as you called it, is simply the joon bee for the form. It's called tong mil gi seogi, or pushing hands stance. I tried to find out more about it from the KKW textbook, but found nothing other than that.

When I first learn Koryo back in 1985, the tong mil gi seogi was very forceful & intense (like a dyanmic tension move). But it's done that way "officially" anymore.

The 1st side kick (in the two double side kick motions) is more of a fake than an actual kick aimed at the knee. The second kick is to the face (according to the textbook dvd).

I wish you all the best in a lifetime of learning this form.

Well actually the two sidekicks are to the outside of the knee and then the floating rib cage. They changed it to be more flashy for competition, so sad of this, but you are right the first move should be done with intensity but that too has gone. It is too bad for all the changes, me I like the original it suites me better but that is another story. The original Koryo was all about power and strikes and the latest version is about flexibility and show, there are some great SD mix in but nobdy really teaches them anymore mainly because they are sport people.

 

[IcemanSK]

Terry, I was surprised at the description of the second as being to the face in the textbook dvd as well. I figured that if the first was a fake to the knee, the second "real" kick would be to the solar plexus. Not this time around.

I don't want to highjack the thread with this detail, however.

Is this helping garrison?

 

[garrisons2]

yes, most interesting, please continue. It's kind of ironic to me that when I started a couple years ago I at first glance didnt take much stock in forms, however now they are my favorite, My heritage is the Palgwe forms as my GM is from Korea. He has been at it about 50 years and tells of stories (in broken English) where they went to school in Korea and the chosen TKD gifted kids were only really required to study TKD. btw he teaches the Koryo side kick as knee or shin then face. I'm still trying to keep my balance when doing it

 

[IcemanSK]

The thing about forms is that often each instructor will do it slightly differently. With this one, wherever the kicks are aimed (knee/shin, solar plexus or face) balance is certainly the key (&/or difficult part in many cases).

After all my time in TKD, it's still my favorite form.

 

[Miles]

Koryo is a great poomsae for 1st dan. If you look at the line (Japanese stylists call this "embusen"), it is the Chinese character meaning "sonbae" or learned man.

When GM Park visited us, he said the opening motion is tongmilgi and should be performed as though one is gathering his/her concentration.

 

[ACJ]

A few people are saying that the knee high action is a fake, but I was always taught that it was more of a check. Like against them doing a kick.

And with Koryo being all "about flexibility and show" I think that has been reduced quite a bit, actually. It used to score quite high to get your leg almost vertical while doing a kick; while now it is a deduction to kick above your own head height. A reduction in flexibility and flashiness if you ask me.

I agree tonmilgi jumbi seogi should be performed as though gathering your concentration, but so do all the ready stances for each form.

 

[Errant108]

Koryo is a great poomsae for 1st dan. If you look at the line (Japanese stylists call this "embusen"), it is the Chinese character meaning "sonbae" or learned man.

Actually, it isn't.

Seonbae is two characters, meaning the same as the Japanese term senpai. These characters, 先輩, mean "first class" or "first generation", and is used by juniors to address seniors. As you can see, they look nothing like the yeonmuseon for Koryo pumse.

 

[Miles]

Actually, it isn't..

It isn't a great poomsae for 1st dans?

Seonbae is two characters, meaning the same as the Japanese term senpai. These characters, 先輩, mean "first class" or "first generation", and is used by juniors to address seniors. As you can see, they look nothing like the yeonmuseon for Koryo pumse.

Sorry Errant108, I can't see the characters as my office computer isn't set up for it, but I think I understand where I got confused.

This is taken from the KKW website and I have highlighted a portion where I may have gone astray:

"Koryo poomsae symbolizes "seonbae", which means a learned man, who is characterized by a strong martial spirit as well as a righteous learned man's spirit. The spirit had been inherited through the ages of Koguryo, Palhae and down to Koryo, which is the background of organizing the Koryo poomsae. The new techniques appearing in this poomsae are kodeup-chagi, sonnal bakkat-chigi, hansonnal arae-makki, khaljaebi, mureup kkukki, momtong hecho-makki, jumeok pyojeok-jireugi, pyonsonkkeut jeocho-tzireugi, batangson nullo-makki, palkup yop-chagi, mejumeok arae pyojeok-chigi, etc, which only black-belters can practice. The junbi-seogi is the tongmilgi which requires mental concentration by positioning the hand in between the upper abdomen and the lower abdomen where "sin"(divine) and "jeong"(spirit) converge. The line of poomsae represents the Chinese letter which means "seonbae" or "seonbi", a learned man or a man of virtue in the Korean language. ""

Thanks!

 

[MSUTKD]

The yunmusun makes the character 士, "sa" in korean.
This character (士) means scholar and gentleman and is a combination of two radicals 一, one and 十, ten. The radicals can be interpreted to mean a person who knows from one to ten, having knowledge of many things about a subject.

 

[Miles]

Fascinating information! And now I know something new.

 

[Errant108]

Missed chatting with you MSUTKD. Good to see you again.