Pirates? Just pay the ransom!
- Thread starter geezer
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Gordon Nore
Senior Master
Actually Bill, I was alluding to that story, but should have been more direct. Add the "War on Piracy" to the to-do list.
shihansmurf
Black Belt
Seems like a good job for Blackwater, or whatever it is that they re-named themselves, what with us leaving Iraq in the indeterminate future.
Dead pirates are good pirates.
Good buisness.
Mark
Dead pirates are good pirates.
Good buisness.
Mark
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
I'm simply not one to bend over and grab my ankles for anyone or anything.
All the pirates have done is bring more attention (international that is) to themselves...not a wise "business" decision on their part. When you "operate in the shadows" it doesn't bode well for you to "step into the light."
We actually have international support on this one boys and girls. This problem has been overlooked for a long time, but I have a feeling That may be changing.
There may be an escalation of pirate activity in the short term because they got their widdle fee-wings hurt when their hands got smacked by the bad ole U.S...but all they're doing is digging themselves a deeper hole in the long run.
Let's put this on a personal level to help put things in perspective:
Do you continue to let your family remain in danger?
What happens when you can no longer get insurance to replace your losses?
What do you do when you have nothing left for them to steal and they still want more?
What do you do when they threaten your life and well-being? The life of your family? (BTW: "well-being" is not strictly confined to one's health, it has to do with quality of life as well. Do you enjoy living in fear?)
Those are but a few concerns that should be considered; however, on an international scale they become much more far-reaching and affect many more people.
I've yet to see a legitimate argument against stopping any crime where people are adversely affected. There may be some good points in regards to the short-term, but in the long term the only ones that benefit are the criminals and the only ones that suffer are the law-abiding folks.
All the pirates have done is bring more attention (international that is) to themselves...not a wise "business" decision on their part. When you "operate in the shadows" it doesn't bode well for you to "step into the light."
We actually have international support on this one boys and girls. This problem has been overlooked for a long time, but I have a feeling That may be changing.
There may be an escalation of pirate activity in the short term because they got their widdle fee-wings hurt when their hands got smacked by the bad ole U.S...but all they're doing is digging themselves a deeper hole in the long run.
Let's put this on a personal level to help put things in perspective:
- Same guys continue to break into your house and steal your crap.
- You don't call the police because you don't want to upset them and your insurance policy will pay for the losses.
- Your insurance premiums continue to sky-rocket because you become more and more of a risk (that's basically how it works...just ask an agent) to the point where you have to take a second job, so does the wife, and the kids have to take a paper route....
- You finally get sick of it and call the cops who arrest the burglers.
- The burglers friends then start robbing you and your neighbors blind because you ratted out their buddies.
Do you continue to let your family remain in danger?
What happens when you can no longer get insurance to replace your losses?
What do you do when you have nothing left for them to steal and they still want more?
What do you do when they threaten your life and well-being? The life of your family? (BTW: "well-being" is not strictly confined to one's health, it has to do with quality of life as well. Do you enjoy living in fear?)
Those are but a few concerns that should be considered; however, on an international scale they become much more far-reaching and affect many more people.
I've yet to see a legitimate argument against stopping any crime where people are adversely affected. There may be some good points in regards to the short-term, but in the long term the only ones that benefit are the criminals and the only ones that suffer are the law-abiding folks.
As I said at my last physical, "Doc, that better be your finger!"
But it's not personal, and that's why your analogy doesn't work.
Since it is 'you' and not 'a business which is not you', you forgot that they can pass their increased costs along to their customer. You're the end of the line, the buck stops with you. In the case of the business, not so much.
You would advocate that businesses have to do what you think they should do, because law-abiding folks pay higher costs due to shipping companies paying pirates?
I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way.
I happy to agree with you about taking on the pirates. Seems like a very good thing for us to do, and frankly, blowing up pirates should be fun.
But businesses get to run their businesses the way they want in a free market economy. I don't think you or I get to force them to man up and stop paying pirates.
Ask a thousand NYC bodegas that pay 'protection money' to certain 'businessmen' to keep the place from burning down or being robbed. Should consumers be able to force those bodegas to tell the Mafia to get stuffed? Well, it's the same thing. Businesses make choices that are in their own best interests. That's that way it goes.
However (sigh), I am certain that in a few posts, someone is going to point out that these shipping companies are (sigh) cowards, and anyone who sees their point of of view is a (sigh) coward, because they'd rather (sigh) cower in (sigh) fear in their homes and (sigh) beg the pirates not to harm them instead of standing up to them like a man's man's man's macho karate d00d would do seven days a week and twice on Sunday (pound chest, posture, make 'grr' noise).
Let's see how long it takes...
This may sound horrible, but my opinion is that when pirates, terrorists, or whatever take a shipload/planeload/building load of hostages, the first thing we should do is keep our obnoxious corporate press completely in the dark and blow up the ship/plane/building.
Yes, the hostages are sacrificed. The terrorists/priates/whatever get no money, no media attention, and no chance to make whatever statement they intend to make.
Never give in. Even at the expense of the hostages. Giving in encourages them and such situations occur more frequently (they have).
Second, rather than use hostage situations to train seals and such, deploy trained military personel on these merchant vessels and arm the vessels. Heavily. Our navy personel get action outside of wartime to keep them honed and the ships are protected.
If we do that, they'll focus on ships flying non-US flags and avoid us. Keep in mind, pirates are interested in making a profit, not pitched battles. Armed merchant cruisers were actually used in WWI to some effect. Their main weakness was submarines.
Media attention is the other thing that some of these idiots (generally terrorists rather than pirates) crave. And our media is in such sorry shape that they will give it to them no matter what just to break a story with no thought of any consequences or bigger picture. Keep them from getting the media attention and once again, the return on their efforts is drastically reduced.
The media is also bound and determined to undermine any legitimate efforts on the part of our military to do anything about anything. They should be kept out of the loop in such situations to the greatest degree possible.
I realize that my opinion on this may offend the sensibilities of some. My apologies if you are among them; offense of others is not my intent. This is the only way that I personally see as effective in dealing with those who would use hostages as leverage for obtaining money, political consessions, or media attention. I abhore the fact that the world is in such a state where such an opinion could be considered by anyone, myself included.
Daniel
Yes, the hostages are sacrificed. The terrorists/priates/whatever get no money, no media attention, and no chance to make whatever statement they intend to make.
Never give in. Even at the expense of the hostages. Giving in encourages them and such situations occur more frequently (they have).
Second, rather than use hostage situations to train seals and such, deploy trained military personel on these merchant vessels and arm the vessels. Heavily. Our navy personel get action outside of wartime to keep them honed and the ships are protected.
If we do that, they'll focus on ships flying non-US flags and avoid us. Keep in mind, pirates are interested in making a profit, not pitched battles. Armed merchant cruisers were actually used in WWI to some effect. Their main weakness was submarines.
Media attention is the other thing that some of these idiots (generally terrorists rather than pirates) crave. And our media is in such sorry shape that they will give it to them no matter what just to break a story with no thought of any consequences or bigger picture. Keep them from getting the media attention and once again, the return on their efforts is drastically reduced.
The media is also bound and determined to undermine any legitimate efforts on the part of our military to do anything about anything. They should be kept out of the loop in such situations to the greatest degree possible.
I realize that my opinion on this may offend the sensibilities of some. My apologies if you are among them; offense of others is not my intent. This is the only way that I personally see as effective in dealing with those who would use hostages as leverage for obtaining money, political consessions, or media attention. I abhore the fact that the world is in such a state where such an opinion could be considered by anyone, myself included.
Daniel
Shotgun Buddha
Brown Belt
Does anyone have any details or even rough estimates about numbers of these pirate groups operating, firewpower they possess, whether or not its a unified group or smaller unrelated bands?
It seems to me any decision made by a business regarding whether a ship should combat these raids is fairly dependant on what they're actually up against.
It seems to me any decision made by a business regarding whether a ship should combat these raids is fairly dependant on what they're actually up against.
CoryKS
Senior Master
Smallpox canisters. Let 'em take it back to their nest.
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
Oh, but I disagree! It is personal at the very least (to stick to the previous example) because you and I as consumers will ultimately pay the price (pun intended) for increased cost of goods.
I'm sure the families of the sailors take it personally as well. :uhohh:
I reiterate: There's more to this than just "Big Business". Look, I'm no fan of "Big Business" either...especially these days...grrrr....but we must consider the "Big Picture".
...and that doesn't make it personal?
There is much more to consider of course, but as stated I take it pretty "personal" when the prices of items I buy go up and my pay check does not. LOL
Not at all. My government should have to do what I think they should do in order to protect it's people, commerce, and interests because even though it may seem they have forgotten it these days...they do work for me (us.)
Actually it does to a degree...in regards to businesses...lest they end up out of business. Market demand plays a large role in what they do...but we're not talking about Macroeconomics really...we're talking about how we should deal with these criminals.
My bags are packed! Let's go!!! LOL
True...we can't "force" but the market does "influence"....but again...not looking to discuss Macro...lol
I'm sure that's just as widespread as it was in the 30's and 40's and law enforcement stands by and allows it to continue so of course our government should turn a blind eye to the pirates....right?
And yes...businesses allmost ALWAYS make decisions in their best interest. The business of business is business after all.
Got nothing to do with it. It's not about the businesses. It's not really up to them to "do something", it's up to our government in this case as due to the circumstances they are the "law" in this case.
:deadhorse They have a responsibility to protect our citizens, trade, and other interests.
OK, if you're referring to our government taking an active role, then I agree with you. Sorry, in the usual discussion of 'us' and 'they' and so on, I thought you were disagreeing with business being allowed to make their own decisions. My bad.
astrobiologist
Brown Belt
The answer here is simple:
Do not negotiate with pirates/terrorists
Kill them
If you give in now, you'll have to give in next time, and then the time after that, and so on...
Be strong. Fight back. Stand up.
On September 11, 2001, a few brave people decided to stand up and say "NO!". The airplane that they were traveling in did not crash into a building or kill more than those on board the plane. The brave may die, but their sacrifice is always remembered.
Do not negotiate with pirates/terrorists
Kill them
If you give in now, you'll have to give in next time, and then the time after that, and so on...
Be strong. Fight back. Stand up.
On September 11, 2001, a few brave people decided to stand up and say "NO!". The airplane that they were traveling in did not crash into a building or kill more than those on board the plane. The brave may die, but their sacrifice is always remembered.
Oh come on guys....are you going to be that picky on the use of a word? I think its safe to say that you both know what I was talking about. Ok...lets substitute the word WE for the shipping companies. And as CC stated, in the end, the consumers, so that could be the WE, will suffer the end results.
Has the US Military been involved in the other hijackings? I don't know. But either way, I'm sure we'll start to see a joint effort with other countries in an effort to fight the pirates. Maybe instead of bending over, like what seems to be the common thought, the ships should fight back, such as suggested by astrobiologist.
So, the real reason you disagree with me finally comes out Bill. LOL. See, it all goes back to my usual analogy....
Person A: They're confronted with a mugger at the ATM. The badguy has a knife. He asks the victim for $500, to which the victim complies. Badguy leaves, victim is left with a bad memory of the event and a loss of cash.
Person B: Same as A, but badguy tells victim to go with him behind the bank. Victim really starts fearing for his well being, so he then acts.
Person C: Same as A, but instead of complying, he relentlessly attacks the badguy, and gets the hell out of there, with his life and his cash.
So, you will always go with A, because anything else is macho, internet tough guy talk, blah, blah, blah. Sorry Bill, but yes, they are acting like cowards if they bend over every time the pirates get what they want. Military protection, armed guards, whatever it takes, but the next time the pirates try to board a ship, they should be looking down the barrel of a few guns.
Props to the crew for fighting back during this recent hijacking though. Of course, if you were on the ship, I suppose you'd suggest to fully cooperate, bend over and give the pirates everything they want, right?
Archangel M
Senior Master
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I think the easiest solution is to locate and sink these pirate "motherships". I doubt that these little dingys are cruising hundreds of miles from shore and finding ships to hijack at random....
I am basically in agreement with this idea, but these are very poor people who are not in an organization and sharing information and ideas. This is a country where electrical service is intermittent and so it's far from clear to me that all the pirates out there know what happened...and it's a place where people are poor, scared, and hungry, and death at the hands of Navy Seals at sea vs. warlords on land isn't a clear-cut matter. I am far from sure that the message will be heard.
That having been said, violence is the only thing short of a Marshall Plan for Somalia that can possibly help here.
Captain’s Rescue Revives Debate Over Arming Crews
Arming ships is much harder than it appears. The concerns of the crew accidentally discharging or misusing the weapons, of pirates shooting first rather than taking hostages if they fear armed resistance, of pirates arming themselves more heavily if they fear armed resistance, of countries refusing entry to armed merchant seamen from other nations, or volatile contents that could ignite in the presence of fireplay, all argue against it.
Regardless, I think this has to be the solution. Mount some .50 caliber machine guns on the ships and keep on board a dozen trained men--possibly military or even or USMS reservists--and a gun locker to which only a few people have keys. Mount the watch and make public warnings that approaching within 1000 yards without permission over the radio from the captain means you will be fired upon. It'd require an international agreement to allow them into ports, but these are not uncommon weapons. make them so they can be locked in place by the port controllers using their own heavy locks, and make that part of pulling into port--the home coast guard comes on board and double-locks your weaponry until you leave.
Arming ships is much harder than it appears. The concerns of the crew accidentally discharging or misusing the weapons, of pirates shooting first rather than taking hostages if they fear armed resistance, of pirates arming themselves more heavily if they fear armed resistance, of countries refusing entry to armed merchant seamen from other nations, or volatile contents that could ignite in the presence of fireplay, all argue against it.
Regardless, I think this has to be the solution. Mount some .50 caliber machine guns on the ships and keep on board a dozen trained men--possibly military or even or USMS reservists--and a gun locker to which only a few people have keys. Mount the watch and make public warnings that approaching within 1000 yards without permission over the radio from the captain means you will be fired upon. It'd require an international agreement to allow them into ports, but these are not uncommon weapons. make them so they can be locked in place by the port controllers using their own heavy locks, and make that part of pulling into port--the home coast guard comes on board and double-locks your weaponry until you leave.
Archangel M
Senior Master
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I think the Romans showed the best way of defeating piracy if there is the will and the guts to do it. Rome invaded Illiria in 68BC, home base of the most prolific and successful piracy in the Adriatic, and effectively stamped the problem out. They also killed outright or crucified every pirate in every ship they caught.
For a long while Rome eradicated piracy in their area of control.
For a long while Rome eradicated piracy in their area of control.
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Deaf Smith
Master of Arts
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Hey gang,
How about we all go the Haiti, get a bunch of youths, train then in H2H and shooting, and let them all go hijack ships coming out of the Panama Canal! I mean if they are not going to stop piracy, go with the flow right? Don't be shocked if one day that happens if the world fails to take real solid action.
Those who counsel to give in are so decadent they will not fight for anything. And those who would take what they want will take everything of you let them.
Maybe this is a replay of Rome.
Deaf
How about we all go the Haiti, get a bunch of youths, train then in H2H and shooting, and let them all go hijack ships coming out of the Panama Canal! I mean if they are not going to stop piracy, go with the flow right? Don't be shocked if one day that happens if the world fails to take real solid action.
Those who counsel to give in are so decadent they will not fight for anything. And those who would take what they want will take everything of you let them.
Maybe this is a replay of Rome.
Deaf
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Yes it is.
And you KNOW how the saying went.
"As goes the Collosseum, so goes Rome, as goes Rome so goes the world".
And you KNOW how the saying went.
"As goes the Collosseum, so goes Rome, as goes Rome so goes the world".
