Pinan = `safe from harm', NOT `peaceful mind'...?

[Tez3]

Iain's a Wado guy! I'm jumping up and down because I've just received the newsletter and he's put in that he was training with Shingo Ohgami, wow! Like Iain I carry my battered Wado books around and I consult them all the time even for doing TSD. I recommend both the books for every martial artist because of the scientific way moves are broken down and explained and if not for that for one single paragraph on page 10 of "Inroduction to Karate"

"Pioneers in budo have been challenging the natural procedure of ageing. For what have we been training so hard if we are not getting better by age? Budo has the character of art. Art is endless and forever. And besides, even in combat, though your punch may be slower by age, you can still perform it effectively by learning the best timing and using the opponent's power. In combat we always have an opponent. We have the possibility to use his energy"

"Introduction to Karate" and "Karate Katas of Wado Ryu" by Shingo Ohgami. a student of Hironori Ohtsuka, founder of Wado Ryu.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Tez, I don't suppose that you trained under the same gentleman? With how giddy you are, it seems like you did.

 

[Tez3]

Tez, I don't suppose that you trained under the same gentleman? With how giddy you are, it seems like you did.

LOL! Sadly I haven't, I just love Wado! It just suits me so well. However am training with Iain Abernethy next month! >hides from Exile lol!<

 

[exile]

Hu, this guy really sounds like a Cuong Nhu guy. By that I mean the openness, and 'kata is your martial God' thing./QUOTE]

If you do meet him, suggest he looks into Cuong Nhu. There are no schools in England, but there is one in Germany and anouther in Paris. He might find us intresting.

I very strongly suspect that if you ever got into a conversation with IA, he would be trying to get every last bit of information out of you about Cuong Nhu and setting up specific scenario to have you demo techs for and so on, and would probably say something about how cool it was in his next newsletter. He's a MA tech sponge—totally nonsectarian, though highly skilled and deep in his own base art—he has a kind of universalist vision of the fundamentals, with individual arts and styles representing alternative realizations of the possibilities. Abernethy's views of the MAs are in a way very similar the the views that theoretical syntactitians have about the nature of human languages: that at some very abstract level (which can be characterized explicitly in mathematical terms, but where there's a lot of controversy of what form that characterization should take) there is a single human language faculty, something very similar to a perception system like vision or our sense of kinæsthetics. But in order to receive expression, this abstract unitary system has to become `embodied' through particular choices of detail, and variants in those choices correspond to the difference between Mandarin, French, Zulu and Mohawk. At the base, it's the single unitary system. I have the sense that Abernethy similarly sees the MAs as equally valid expressions of a kind of universal set of dynamic conditions on combat, reflecting the realities of physics and the realities of biomechanics, and the limitations that these realities impose on unarmed combat between human being. But realizing those universals in a particular form requires a choice of strategic principle and corresponding tactics, with both principles and tactics embodies in the kata, hyungs, hsings or whatever the name for patterns is the art in question. Just as for the syntactician, all languages are equally important and informative because all of them have at their base the same universal human cognitive system, so for someone like IA, all MAs are equally interesting and important because each embodies a particular version of the inherent constraints on combat that arise from the way we're constructed and the way we can deliver force to an attacker. For him, CN would be just as important and informative as TKD or Shotokan, with their millions of practitioners, and as I say, he'd probably insist on finding out everything you knew about it if you were talking to him...

Iain's a Wado guy! I'm jumping up and down because I've just received the newsletter and he's put in that he was training with Shingo Ohgami, wow! Like Iain I carry my battered Wado books around and I consult them all the time even for doing TSD. I recommend both the books for every martial artist because of the scientific way moves are broken down and explained and if not for that for one single paragraph on page 10 of "Inroduction to Karate"

"Pioneers in budo have been challenging the natural procedure of ageing. For what have we been training so hard if we are not getting better by age? Budo has the character of art. Art is endless and forever. And besides, even in combat, though your punch may be slower by age, you can still perform it effectively by learning the best timing and using the opponent's power. In combat we always have an opponent. We have the possibility to use his energy"

"Introduction to Karate" and "Karate Katas of Wado Ryu" by Shingo Ohgami. a student of Hironori Ohtsuka, founder of Wado Ryu.

Good quote, Tez. IA is a fifth dan in Wado Ryu from Doug James, 7th Dan from the Karate England federation, and has a fifth dan ranking as well from the BCA under Peter Consterdine (8th Dan) and Geoff Thompson (6th Dan). I think he shifts easily between the WR and the Shotokan perspectives, but the WR angle probably led him early to the grappling/controlling aspects of karate that are, from what I've heard, more visible in WR training than in Shotokan, as a rule.

LOL! Sadly I haven't, I just love Wado! It just suits me so well. However am training with Iain Abernethy next month! >hides from Exile lol!<

I'm still green, Tez!!! But I'm determined to get my own back in 2009...

 

[CuongNhuka]

I very strongly suspect that if you ever got into a conversation with IA, he would be trying to get every last bit of information out of you about Cuong Nhu and setting up specific scenario to have you demo techs for and so on, and would probably say something about how cool it was in his next newsletter.

Suddenly termpted to try and go to England.... I'd also visit Tez of course.

 

[Steel Tiger]

The thing I find particularly interesting from IA's discussion is his urging us to consider the cultural context of late 19th c. Okinawa. The Okinawan connection with China is quite old—it was an official tribute-state of the Han empire from the late 14th century on—and there was a strong bond between the Chinese and the Okinawans that may well have been part of the reasons the Tokugawa shogunate sent the Satsuma samurai over to Okinawa: a prospective Tokugawa plan to attack China had relied on supplies from Okinawa which the inhabitants never provided, and the Satsumas, IA suggests, were likely part of the punishment meted out to the islanders for their non-cooperation. Chinese had the status of a kind of court language, similar to that of French in the court of Peter the Great and later Czars, and a member of the scholar class, such as Itosu, was expected to be both fluent and literate in Mandarin. Japanese, on the other hand, was regarded as the language of heavy-handed occupiers, whom the Okinawans had no power to resist but, if Bruce Clayton is correct, viewed with a good deal of distaste, as one might expect. So if you think about the
symbolic role of Chinese as vs. Japanese, as IA asks us to, his analysis seems particularly plausible.

Okinawa's relationship with China is clearly very important and I think even more intimate that we might think. Himiko's queendom (AD175-248), on Kyushu, is referred to as a friend of Wei. If the Chinese were in contact with Kyushu at that time there is a better than good chance that they were also in contact with Okinawa. There earliest reference to the Ryukyu islands (Okinawa) is in the Book of Sui which was completed in AD636.

The Okinawan relationship with China is long, continuous, and strong. So it would only be proper that the Chinese language would be a point of vital consideration when interpreting the kanji of kata names.

IA, I think, is pursuing a very promising line of inquiry in this regard. If it is a thorough as his previous woork then it will be very interesting indeed.

 

[kidswarrior]

I think your really gonna like it, KW—it is just as you say, rational and practical. What I like about IA's work especially is that it takes a very pragmatic, sensible view of karate, and the MAs in general, and invites us to see them in proportion, as just another useful, constructive part of normal life, something we should try to understand in practical fashion so that it can be a tool for us to resort if we need it, and pursue for the sheer pleasure of the activity even if we don't actually have to apply it for self-defense.

You're right, I did, and for all the reasons you mention, Ex.

The Okinawan relationship with China is long, continuous, and strong. So it would only be proper that the Chinese language would be a point of vital consideration when interpreting the kanji of kata names.

IA, I think, is pursuing a very promising line of inquiry in this regard. If it is a thorough as his previous woork then it will be very interesting indeed.

I agree. I hadn't realized he was such a scholar-warrior (although I'm sure he would deny that).

 

[Steel Tiger]

I agree. I hadn't realized he was such a scholar-warrior (although I'm sure he would deny that).

It's kind of good to know that there are still some around. I would like to see more work of such quality from people in other arts as well.

An increase in the synthesis of body, mind, and spirit.

 

[exile]

Suddenly termpted to try and go to England.... I'd also visit Tez of course.

Yah, every time I get one of IA's newsletters and his descriptions of who he's doing joint seminars with—everyone from FMA experts like our own Dan Anderson through the full range of TMAs to wrestlers and reality-scenario specialists, and sometimes a whole bunch of them at once, trading their trade secrets quite freely and happily, the way the BCA people seem to love to do—I get the same impulse.

Tez, btw, lives in the same general neck of the woods where James Herriot, in real life Alf Wight, lived and practiced veterinary medicine as depicted in his books and the great TV series All Creatures Great and Small—one of the really magnificent places on the planet, the Yorshire Dales/Moorland. We're going to be visiting that neck of the woods in 2009 and she's going to find us on her doorstep (whether she like it or not :lol). Living in that part of the world and getting to do seminars with IA and the BCA gang at the drop of a hat... how does one get to have such luck??

Okinawa's relationship with China is clearly very important and I think even more intimate that we might think. Himiko's queendom (AD175-248), on Kyushu, is referred to as a friend of Wei. If the Chinese were in contact with Kyushu at that time there is a better than good chance that they were also in contact with Okinawa. There earliest reference to the Ryukyu islands (Okinawa) is in the Book of Sui which was completed in AD636.

The Okinawan relationship with China is long, continuous, and strong. So it would only be proper that the Chinese language would be a point of vital consideration when interpreting the kanji of kata names.

That's really interesting, ST—I knew about the connections between Okinawa and China only as far back as the 14th c. But it stands to reason that the Chinese, amongst the greatest mariners of the ancient world, would have reached places as relatively nearby in the North Pacific as Okinawa, and it would have definitely been economically advantageous for the Okinawans to have maintained trade and other contacts with as advanced and developed a civilization as China was at that time...

IA, I think, is pursuing a very promising line of inquiry in this regard. If it is a thorough as his previous woork then it will be very interesting indeed.

You're right, I did, and for all the reasons you mention, Ex.

Excellent! —I'm glad, KW; I really think that general line of inquiry he's pursuing will ultimately benefit very greatly not just the karate-based arts but the TMAs in general.

I agree. I hadn't realized he was such a scholar-warrior (although I'm sure he would deny that).

Abernethy strikes me as a very modest chap, the last person on earth who would try to pull rank or overwhelm you with his credentials. He would certainly not claim to be a scholar, but I think he is, even though a lot of his thinking is based on synthesis of the first-hand research of MA historians and philoogists. But to my mind, synthesis of other's research results in the service of a particular technical perspective can constitute a kind of original result of its own. And IA, though he doesn't regard himself as a scholar in the academic sense, has I think made some notable discoveries and backed them with persuave, fact-based argument.

It's kind of good to know that there are still some around. I would like to see more work of such quality from people in other arts as well.

An increase in the synthesis of body, mind, and spirit.

I couldn't agree more. To my way of thinking, the lines of investigation opened up by people working in that `experimental karate' approach are much more likely to bring a renewal of interest in these arts than further expansion of their sport-tournament networks....

 

[kidswarrior]

Abernethy strikes me as a very modest chap, the last person on earth who would try to pull rank or overwhelm you with his credentials. He would certainly not claim to be a scholar, but I think he is, even though a lot of his thinking is based on synthesis of the first-hand research of MA historians and philoogists. But to my mind, synthesis of other's research results in the service of a particular technical perspective can constitute a kind of original result of its own. And IA, though he doesn't regard himself as a scholar in the academic sense, has I think made some notable discoveries and backed them with persuave, fact-based argument.

This is a belief I've held for a long time. I see a strand of student which exhibits the *gift* of synthesizing the work of others to the point it becomes a whole new line of thought, or invention if you will. Hadn't thought of IA in this *strand* until your comment, but now I can see in a way he's 'inventing' (discovering?) a new (old?) synthesis.

 

[Steel Tiger]

That's really interesting, ST—I knew about the connections between Okinawa and China only as far back as the 14th c. But it stands to reason that the Chinese, amongst the greatest mariners of the ancient world, would have reached places as relatively nearby in the North Pacific as Okinawa, and it would have definitely been economically advantageous for the Okinawans to have maintained trade and other contacts with as advanced and developed a civilization as China was at that time...

You know, you have just called to mind something I saw way back in 1985. My then teacher, Wal Missingham, went to China, to Shaolin, specifically, to meet the old monks who still lived at the temple. One of the old fellas demonstrated a form for him, which he got on video. It was very old and looked a lot like Okinawan karate kata. I dont think the form was named, but if you can ever get a hold of a documentary called Kung Fu Pilgrimage (produced in Australia) you could see the form.

I think that the thing to remember about Okinawa, as far as MAs are concerned, is that it looks back to China and forward to Japan. It is a place of transition for the form and interpretation of martial arts between two martial art cultures. This is not to say that there is no Okinawan martial culture, quite the contrary. The fact that it is a place of transition has meant that something unique has arisen.

Excellent! —I'm glad, KW; I really think that general line of inquiry he's pursuing will ultimately benefit very greatly not just the karate-based arts but the TMAs in general.


I couldn't agree more. To my way of thinking, the lines of investigation opened up by people working in that `experimental karate' approach are much more likely to bring a renewal of interest in these arts than further expansion of their sport-tournament networks....

What Abernathy's work reminds me of most, in my experience, is the experimental archaeology that began in the '80s. What we had seen before then was a lot of speculative reconstruction based on written evidence and artefacts. With the advent of the experimental archaeologists we were seeing practical experiments designed to demonstrate how something was, or was not, done. It has done wonders for archaeology and appears to be having the same effect for martial arts.

 

[kidswarrior]

I think that the thing to remember about Okinawa, as far as MAs are concerned, is that it looks back to China and forward to Japan. It is a place of transition for the form and interpretation of martial arts between two martial art cultures. This is not to say that there is no Okinawan martial culture, quite the contrary. The fact that it is a place of transition has meant that something unique has arisen.

As you and Exile have both expounded, to me this is the key point of the historical side of this thread, and perhaps the unarticulated undercurrent in IA's podcast.