Chiang Nan/Channan; one of two precursors to the Pinan/Heian/Pyung Ahn form sets.

SahBumNimRush

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The Pinan kata originated in Okinawa and were adapted by Anko Itosu from older kata such as Kusanku and Channan. One of the stories surrounding the history of the Pinan kata claims that Itosu learned a kata from a Chinese man living in Okinawa. This kata was called "Chiang Nan" by the Chinese man.[SUP]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_nan#cite_note-4[/SUP] The form became known as "Channan", an Okinawan/Japanese approximation of the Chinese pronunciation. The original form of the Channan kata is lost. Itosu formed 5 katas from the long Channan Kata which he thought would be easier to learn.

I've always wondered if any remnants of the elusive Chiang Nan form still exists and what it may look like. While looking on the net for connections between CMA forms/techniques and OMA/JMA/KMA forms/techniques, I came across a Baqua form called Jiang Nan. It appears to have some similar movements as the Pyung Ahn form sets, does any of our CMA MTer's know anything about this form? What do the OMA/JMA/KMA MTer's think?

 
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SahBumNimRush

SahBumNimRush

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I suspected that it was not, but I thought I'd ask those who were more knowledgeable than I. The formset you linked above does have some very interesting similarities in it. Thanks for the link.


I'd love to discuss similarities between the looks of techniques vs. the intent/application of those techniques.

For example: snap shot at 0:19 looks similar to a "spear hand strike," however it is delivered much differently.

Snap shot at 0:35 looks similar to a "side punching attack" which we also use as a takedown (extended arm scissoring the attacker's body with the front leg of the deep horse stance).

Those are really the only two movements in the form clfsean linked that I would say show strong similarity to the art I practice.
 
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clfsean

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I suspected that it was not, but I thought I'd ask those who were more knowledgeable than I. The formset you linked above does have some very interesting similarities in it. Thanks for the link.

I'd love to discuss similarities between the looks of techniques vs. the intent/application of those techniques.

For example: snap shot at 0:19 looks similar to a "spear hand strike," however it is delivered much differently.

Snap shot at 0:35 looks similar to a "side punching attack" which we also use as a takedown (extended arm scissoring the attacker's body with the front leg of the deep horse stance).

Those are really the only two movements in the form clfsean linked that I would say show strong similarity to the art I practice.

I'll get back on this later tonight when I get in from teaching.
 

Flying Crane

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video is blocked at work so I cannot view the link right now. However, it is my understanding that the Fukienese White Crane method is where a lot of the Chinese influence in the Okinawan arts came from. The famous Sanchin kata has a direct and VERY similar counterpart in the FWC method, tho I cannot remember what they call it. Four Battles, or Eight Battles or something...?

anyway, I would start looking in that direction for links and similarities.

Oh, and make sure you are looking at the Fukienese method, and not the Tibetan White Crane. Those are completely separate arts that happen to share the same name.
 

clfsean

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video is blocked at work so I cannot view the link right now. However, it is my understanding that the Fukienese White Crane method is where a lot of the Chinese influence in the Okinawan arts came from. The famous Sanchin kata has a direct and VERY similar counterpart in the FWC method, tho I cannot remember what they call it. Four Battles, or Eight Battles or something...?

anyway, I would start looking in that direction for links and similarities.

Oh, and make sure you are looking at the Fukienese method, and not the Tibetan White Crane. Those are completely separate arts that happen to share the same name.

For the Goju/uechi styles yep, dead on. But for the others (Shorin types), I can't find anything from the north to fit it per se. They're definitely not Songshan Shaolin stuff. Maybe other stuff.

This video is a gen 1 or gen 2 max (before the initial outlaw of san shou by the PRC) wushu set that is basic northern styled wushu. Non-descript by style but could be similar in nature the non-White Crane/Fujianese influenced OMAs.
 
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SahBumNimRush

SahBumNimRush

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video is blocked at work so I cannot view the link right now. However, it is my understanding that the Fukienese White Crane method is where a lot of the Chinese influence in the Okinawan arts came from. The famous Sanchin kata has a direct and VERY similar counterpart in the FWC method, tho I cannot remember what they call it. Four Battles, or Eight Battles or something...?

anyway, I would start looking in that direction for links and similarities.

Oh, and make sure you are looking at the Fukienese method, and not the Tibetan White Crane. Those are completely separate arts that happen to share the same name.

Thanks, we were talking about this on a previous thread, the Okinawan Sanchin Kata (3 battles) and Fukian White Crane San Zhan (3 battles) are the same, as well as Nipaipo (Naha Te/ Shito Ryu) vs. Er Shi Ba Bu (white crane). We also discussed the correlation between Grand Ancestors Boxing and Goju/Uechi. See
.

I see subtle similarities between Fukien White Crane and the art that I practice, but I am interested in looking at other styles that may have influenced the forms that I practice as well.
 
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clfsean

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I suspected that it was not, but I thought I'd ask those who were more knowledgeable than I. The formset you linked above does have some very interesting similarities in it. Thanks for the link.

I'd love to discuss similarities between the looks of techniques vs. the intent/application of those techniques.

Here we go...

For example: snap shot at 0:19 looks similar to a "spear hand strike," however it is delivered much differently.

Poon kiu / gum jeurng ... circling bridge to an upper palm. Basic idea (for me)... parry & strike. Another idea... parry into a wrap & joint dislocation at the shoulder. With the forward stance taken in the set, to me that works as an ankle/knee attack to the low line, out of vision due to the parry/strike going on up top. Tie them together or separate.

Snap shot at 0:35 looks similar to a "side punching attack" which we also use as a takedown (extended arm scissoring the attacker's body with the front leg of the deep horse stance).

Ping choi -- level fisted punch. Bunch of little things like the hands to the right hip while settling into the horse stance before the punch. To me... It's not so much a punch as it is a cross body arm bar with the left arm acting as a lever in a sweep due to the horse stance crashing into the lower body. Or just a massive body punch.

Those are really the only two movements in the form clfsean linked that I would say show strong similarity to the art I practice.

Don't look at the individual posture. Look at motion, construct & function. I practiced the Pyung-ahns when I studied TKD in the 80's thru to the 90's. Individual postures can be misleading. I can perform a Single Whip from Yang Taiji & a Single Whip from Northern longfist. If you look at the posture, it's the same. If you look how/why/where it's applied, not really the same at all, but it is.

Know what I mean?
 
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SahBumNimRush

SahBumNimRush

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I completely agree with the movements, but the movements are very foreign to me, so I chose to highlight the still postures which I could relate to. Thank you for your response, very helpful.

Your explanation of Ping Choi seems to be similar to mine. Your explanation of Poon kiu / gum jeurng is very interesting. I know techniques that do what you are describing, but never thought of a movement in that manner.

It's late here, just jumped on to check the thread.. . I'll pick back up tomorrow. Thanks again!
 
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SahBumNimRush

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The majority of the forms that I practice are of the Shuri-Te lineage: Pinan (Pyung Ahn), Naihanchi, Kusanku (Kang Song Kun), Jion, Jitte (Ship Soo). I also practice Chinto (Jinto), Wanshu (Empi), and Seisan. I am interested in exploring the history of these forms and the arts they are derived from.


  • The Pinans are said to be derived from Kusanku and Chian Nan/ Channon, a form which is said to be lost in time.


  • Kusanku: Named after Kusanku, a Chinese martial artist who lived in Okinawa during the 18th century. It's said that he learned Ch'uan Fa from a Shaolin Monk. Sakugawa developed the form(s) in honor of Kusanku. Some have also suggested that is has influence from Fujien White Crane.

Do you see any techniques that look similar to Fujien White Crane?

  • Naihanchi: This form seems to start in Okinawa in Tomari, from a Chinese man living there. It was said to have been a Chinese form that no longer is practiced. In the 1960s a kung fu practitioner, Daichi Kaneko, studied a form of Taiwanese White Crane Boxing, known as Dan Qiu Ban Bai He Quan (Half Hillock, Half White Crane Boxing). Kaneko, an acupuncturist who lived in Yonabaru, Okinawa, taught a form called Neixi (inside knee) in Mandarin. This form includes the same sweeping action found in the nami-gaeshi (returning wave) technique of Naihanchi. Neixi is pronounced Nohanchi in Fuzhou dialect, which could indicate Neixi is the forerunner to Naihanchi.
  • Jion/Jitte: These forms also seem to start on Okinawa in Tomari. The only reference to Chinese Kung Fu that I find merely suggests that it was derived from "ancient Chinese boxing." Some have suggested that the Jion kata were devised in the Jionji, the Jion temple.
  • Chinto: According to legend, it is named after a Chinese sailor, sometimes referred to as Annan, whose ship crashed on the Okinawan coast. To survive, Chintō stole from the crops of the local people. Matsumura Sokon, a Karate master and chief bodyguard to the Okinawan king, was sent to defeat Chintō. In the ensuing fight, however, Matsumura found himself equally matched by the stranger, and consequently sought to learn his techniques. I know little about Annan, and his style of martial arts.
  • Wanshu: 'Wang Ji' (1621-1689), the leader of a large ambassadorial mission from China sent by the Qing government to the village of Tomari in 1683. A poet, calligrapher, diplomat, and martial artist in the Shaolin tradition of Fujian White Crane, he is often credited with teaching Chu'an Fa to the gentry of Tomari.
  • Seisan: A Naha-Te form, it is suggested that Seisan derives from Yong Chun White Crane Boxing from Fujian Province in Southern China, where the form is known as 'Four Gate Hands'. (This is completely unproven and uncorroborated. There are some other Chinese styles having a form called 'Shisan' (13) in their curricula, but a link from a specific kung-fu form to Okinawan Seisan has never been established.)

So out of the forms that I practice, only Wanshu and maybe Kusanku trace have been traced to Fujian White Crane. There are suggestions that Seisan is derived from Fujian White Crane, and Naihanchi may have been derived from it since it has been seen in Taiwanese White Crane?

Jion comes from "ancient Chinese boxing?" Not very helpful.. .


Now I understand that things have been altered significantly down through the lineage of these forms, but does anyone see anything that could be linked to any Chinese techniques? I'm not looking for a holy grail or anything, just trying to understand my forms better.
 
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Makalakumu

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Naihanchi: This form seems to start in Okinawa in Tomari, from a Chinese man living there. It was said to have been a Chinese form that no longer is practiced. In the 1960s a kung fu practitioner, Daichi Kaneko, studied a form of Taiwanese White Crane Boxing, known as Dan Qiu Ban Bai He Quan (Half Hillock, Half White Crane Boxing). Kaneko, an acupuncturist who lived in Yonabaru, Okinawa, taught a form called Neixi (inside knee) in Mandarin. This form includes the same sweeping action found in the nami-gaeshi (returning wave) technique of Naihanchi. Neixi is pronounced Nohanchi in Fuzhou dialect, which could indicate Neixi is the forerunner to Naihanchi.

Boldface emphasis mine.

A student of Oyata Sensei told me that the characters for Nai Han Chi could be read as Half Claw Foot. I've always wondered about that. You seem to have found a source that supports a connection to that reading. I would love if you can provide a citation.
 

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Wow... I think I'm gonna kinda buzz kill it, but it all "could be related". I can see most of these forms or parts of them done in things I've done or been exposed to directly.

Direct links though, that's the sketchy part. There are some CMA styles are brother/sister in development, but often don't even resemble the other in form/function. White Crane being one. There's Fuzhou variants, Taiwanese variants, Yong Chun, the branch in Ngo Cho, ... those are all shorthand too.

There's a lot of translation in technique going from one to another. For instance I never have done anything like a shuto/sudo in CMA. However... I have done plenty of bridges that could be changed into a shuto/sudo depending on how it was taught/learned. I've never done anything like an over head x-block. However I have done a bridge that covers my head that could be changed into an x-block depending on how it was taught/learned. I've never pounded a makiwara, but I have done plenty of work on dummies for conditioning & training. The list goes on as you can definitely see.

Does that help or obfuscate?

PS... my fav form in TKD was Kusanku when I earned my black. Then Bassai, Empi & Jitte. I know... Japanese, but that's how I learned it.
 

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I'd love to discuss similarities between the looks of techniques vs. the intent/application of those techniques.

For example: snap shot at 0:19 looks similar to a "spear hand strike," however it is delivered much differently.

The 'spearhand' is supported with the other arm which always suggests a wrap of some type to me. To me one interpretation would be the previous double lower motion was a parry which opened the attacker to a smack to the side of his head with the inner part of your right arm. Think of a short circular clothesline strike. The supporting arm in the motion really comes up to the opposite site of the attacker to keep him within your working area after the clothesline. Next we wrap around his neck/head area and rock back with a wiggle of our hips as in the form. This will drop the attacker.
 

dancingalone

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Boldface emphasis mine.

A student of Oyata Sensei told me that the characters for Nai Han Chi could be read as Half Claw Foot. I've always wondered about that. You seem to have found a source that supports a connection to that reading. I would love if you can provide a citation.

Do you care to speculate on the significance of reading the name as 'Half Claw Foot'?
 
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SahBumNimRush

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Boldface emphasis mine.

A student of Oyata Sensei told me that the characters for Nai Han Chi could be read as Half Claw Foot. I've always wondered about that. You seem to have found a source that supports a connection to that reading. I would love if you can provide a citation.

I can't remember where I first heard that, but it is cited on Wikipedia.. .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naihanchi
 

Makalakumu

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Do you care to speculate on the significance of reading the name as 'Half Claw Foot'?

I wondered if half claw foot referred to some metaphor to understand technique, but now it might just be another way of explaining the style. Half white crane would be an interesting style to research for karate historians. A white crane could very well be described as a claw foot. Unfortunately, I don't have enough experience with kanji to verify this reading. I know some people though...

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk
 
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SahBumNimRush

SahBumNimRush

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Wow... I think I'm gonna kinda buzz kill it, but it all "could be related". I can see most of these forms or parts of them done in things I've done or been exposed to directly.

I agree, the difficult part for me is identifying the movements, since I have little experience in CMA's. Many of the movements are so different in appearance, at least from a layperson's perspective.

Direct links though, that's the sketchy part. There are some CMA styles are brother/sister in development, but often don't even resemble the other in form/function. White Crane being one. There's Fuzhou variants, Taiwanese variants, Yong Chun, the branch in Ngo Cho, ... those are all shorthand too.

There's a lot of translation in technique going from one to another. For instance I never have done anything like a shuto/sudo in CMA. However... I have done plenty of bridges that could be changed into a shuto/sudo depending on how it was taught/learned. I've never done anything like an over head x-block. However I have done a bridge that covers my head that could be changed into an x-block depending on how it was taught/learned. I've never pounded a makiwara, but I have done plenty of work on dummies for conditioning & training. The list goes on as you can definitely see.


Yes, I agree, there is probably a great deal of cross-fertilization the resulted in CMA, OMA, JMA, and KMA's, and even then variation in styles within a given system. Therefore, I doubt one direct line can be given all the credit for a particular form.

Also, I appreciate your insight. I hadn't thought of things in terms of same meaning, different technique. I use the Soodo a great deal in my forms, however, my use of the "x-block" (ssang soo sang dan mahkee) is different than I have seen many people use it in the past. My blocking surface is not between the hands, but rather the left side of the X (right palm trapping against the left forearm). This provides me control of the attacker's wrist. I've also been taught that the X-block in forms like Chinto that come up and right back down are utilized as collar grabs.


Does that help or obfuscate?

PS... my fav form in TKD was Kusanku when I earned my black. Then Bassai, Empi & Jitte. I know... Japanese, but that's how I learned it.

While I'm not sure if it helps a great deal, it certainly facilitates this discussion! It has changed how I can approach this comparison, thank you.
 
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SahBumNimRush

SahBumNimRush

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The 'spearhand' is supported with the other arm which always suggests a wrap of some type to me. To me one interpretation would be the previous double lower motion was a parry which opened the attacker to a smack to the side of his head with the inner part of your right arm. Think of a short circular clothesline strike. The supporting arm in the motion really comes up to the opposite site of the attacker to keep him within your working area after the clothesline. Next we wrap around his neck/head area and rock back with a wiggle of our hips as in the form. This will drop the attacker.

I agree, the supporting arm does not add anything to a spearhand strike. I have used it as a block with a strike to the solar plexus, and as a trap similar to what you have mentioned.
 

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I wondered if half claw foot referred to some metaphor to understand technique, but now it might just be another way of explaining the style. Half white crane would be an interesting style to research for karate historians. A white crane could very well be described as a claw foot. Unfortunately, I don't have enough experience with kanji to verify this reading. I know some people though...

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk


Whatever you can find out and share would be appreciated!
 

Makalakumu

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Whatever you can find out and share would be appreciated!

Here is the message I sent to our schools Japanese Language sensei...

Aloha Akiko

I have a kanji question regarding karate for you. Years ago, it was told to me by a student of Oyata Sensei, Soke of one of the most traditional Okinawan ryu in the United States, that the kanji for naihanchi no kata could be read as Half Claw Foot. Recently, I read that naihanchi no kata was related to a Chinese system of martial arts called Half White Crane. Therefore, I have two questions.

1. Can the kanji for naihanchi be read as half claw foot?
2. Can the kanji for claw foot also be read as White Crane?

I am assuming since you have a shodan in Wado Ryu that you are familiar with naihanchi no kata.

Here is a video of me performing this kata standing on a railing in front of Peter's Pool with Franz Josef Glacier behind me.


Mahalo nui loa for your time

John
 
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