Physical Training

[Xue Sheng]

What I did NOT mean is that one could make his/her ki stronger and stronger simply by doing physcial workouts. Im sorry but I just do not believe this is the case. In fact, I have been taught that if you do too many external workouts like pushups, weightlifting and the like, without proper stretching and relaxation you can cause tenseness and stiffness in the muscles, which would cut off the flow of chi.

Agreed

This is what I was talking about previously from the Traditional Chinese Medicine point of view as to why many athletes as they get older appear not to be healthy and have a lot of reoccurring injury issues, they over train external.

 

[SaiyanPrince]

First I could be wrong here, but I think you missed the point of the previous poster.

Second let me ask you a couple questions.

1) Are you saying that if a person lifts weights a lot and runs a lot they are getting stronger ki/qi therefore they are healthy?

2) Are you saying a person that just meditates is not healthy?

1) This is probally the third time Im clearing myself up, I dont lift weights and dont care about muscular strength. I think lifting weights is the worst thing a Martial artist can do. Also, as I said in my previous post, Physicall training indirectley trains ki wich means as your getting a stronger heart you get more oxygen cells wich helps with developing Ki and it conditions your body for a fight. I didnt mean to say that you are directley strengthening your Ki wich is what Ki excercises are for.

2) You misread what I wrote, I said if 1 person Meditates all day and another person physically trains all day, then the difference between their strength would be whoever put more heart into their training. This means that to me Meditating is just as great as physicall training, depending on what type of Martial artist you are.

 

[SaiyanPrince]

Haha, Im 22 and I still watch anime. Whos the bigger dork? Dont worry, we wont look down on you. Youre a cool guy in my book.
Its good to see that you put all of your heart into your training, which is the most important thing, IMHO. One should be open to new ways of thinking to truly grow in ones training. The problem with getting your knowledge from cartoons is there is a lot of misinformation that comes from the imagination of the writers. They put things in there that sound cool, but have little basis in reality.

Now, about using physical training to develop ki- what I meant was, if all you did was physical workouts, running, pushups, etc; you would be developing endurance, muscular strength, and a healthy body. All of these things would certainly help (to an extent) ki development. By having a stronger heart, you would have more bloodflow to carry oxygen to the body, and you may be aware that air or oxygen is crucial for Chi flow and/or power, so in that sense, yes doing these types of workouts would help in a way.

What I did NOT mean is that one could make his/her ki stronger and stronger simply by doing physcial workouts. Im sorry but I just do not believe this is the case. In fact, I have been taught that if you do too many external workouts like pushups, weightlifting and the like, without proper stretching and relaxation you can cause tenseness and stiffness in the muscles, which would cut off the flow of chi. My sifu explains it like this: in order for Chi to flow powerfully, every fiber of every muscle must be relaxed completely. Say you have a water hose- If you take it and squeeze it as hard as you can, the water will become stuck and pressurized in the hose. Only by relaxing your grip will it flow as it should. Your muscles are the exact same way - when you tense them, you are essentially trapping chi between the muscle fibers, causing the sensation of strength. But for true ki power, your entire body must be completely relaxed until the moment of impact, where you trap all of that chi in an explosive force.

Especially in a self defense encounter, if you are training external (using muscle strength) you will most definetly react external, and even if you train internal (relaxed and focused) it is very difficult to respond correctly unless you are at a certain level...which like i said takes years of focused and diligent training.

I wish I had more time to go in depth, but I have to go to class. Keep training hard saiyan prince, your path will become illuminated for you. Dont limit yourself to boundaries, but keep an open mind to what others have to say.

God bless
Keith

Thanks man, I agree with you 110%, too much physical training is bad for you If you dont know what your doing, and it does cut the flow of ki if you are always tensing and stiffening your muscles.

When I train I balance physicall excercise, stretching, and Meditation, even when Im not meditating I put most of my concentration on a breathing technique to develop ki and mantain control of my breathe.

So you see I am not biased to physical training, I actually started of only training internally, learning how to control my ki to move to certain parts of my body and meditating, this is the site I learned some stuff from www.astraldynamics.com

Thanks again bro, I learned a lot from you, you are the type of freind I would love to have and are huge inspiration to me, and I have a freind thats is 30 years old and still watches Anime also, so your no dork. PEACE!!!

 

[PeaceWarrior]

Ah, I understand now. Im sorry I never saw where you clarified before, either that or I overlooked it. Yeah it sounds like we are definetly on the same page. I think it is very important to have cardio fitness and endurance.

Its good to hear that you dont want to lift weights etc, as I believe this would hinder your pursuit of internal martial arts. It sounds like you are on the right path and Its great that you are starting training at a young age!

God bless

Keith

 

[PeaceWarrior]

Thanks man, I agree with you 110%, too much physical training is bad for you If you dont know what your doing, and it does cut the flow of ki if you are always tensing and stiffening your muscles.

When I train I balance physicall excercise, stretching, and Meditation, even when Im not meditating I put most of my concentration on a breathing technique to develop ki and mantain control of my breathe.

So you see I am not biased to physical training, I actually started of only training internally, learning how to control my ki to move to certain parts of my body and meditating, this is the site I learned some stuff from www.astraldynamics.com

Thanks again bro, I learned a lot from you, you are the type of freind I would love to have and are huge inspiration to me, and I have a freind thats is 30 years old and still watches Anime also, so your no dork. PEACE!!!

Hey, we are friends as far as I am concerned Sounds like youve definetly got the right idea with your training. If the fire burning in you does not go out you will learn a lot in this lifetime.

Now Im curious, what art(s) do you study? I think you said it before but Im too lazy to go back a find it (lol) anyways its getting a bit late for me, but I look forward to talking with you in the future. Peace bro!

k

 

[SaiyanPrince]

LOL, the funny thing is I just recentley found out that I learned so much from everyone here without noticing it. I was to busy trying to convince people to agree with me that I didnt notice that I was learning at the same time. You guys are actually right and im wrong. I still have so much to learn!!!!!!. Sorry If I upset anyone by not agreeing with you before, I do now. Thanks everyone for sharing your knowledge with me, PEACE:ultracool

 

[SaiyanPrince]

Hey, we are friends as far as I am concerned Sounds like youve definetly got the right idea with your training. If the fire burning in you does not go out you will learn a lot in this lifetime.

Now Im curious, what art(s) do you study? I think you said it before but Im too lazy to go back a find it (lol) anyways its getting a bit late for me, but I look forward to talking with you in the future. Peace bro!

k

I dont think I clarified any of this before, lol. I really did just learn that physical training alone wont develop Ki, I was just to ignorant to accept that fact, sorry for confusing you.

I study Ninjutsu!:ninja:but its more complicated than that, my freind teaches me! yup, the one that watches anime. Tell me if youd like to know more about it. Later, freind....

 

[Xue Sheng]

1) This is probally the third time Im clearing myself up, I dont lift weights and dont care about muscular strength. I think lifting weights is the worst thing a Martial artist can do. Also, as I said in my previous post, Physicall training indirectley trains ki wich means as your getting a stronger heart you get more oxygen cells wich helps with developing Ki and it conditions your body for a fight. I didnt mean to say that you are directley strengthening your Ki wich is what Ki excercises are for.

2) You misread what I wrote, I said if 1 person Meditates all day and another person physically trains all day, then the difference between their strength would be whoever put more heart into their training. This means that to me Meditating is just as great as physicall training, depending on what type of Martial artist you are.

Since you have misinterpreted what I have written previously, than I guess a little misinterpretation on my part is ok

First a clarification; Ki and Qi are the same thing. The difference is Ki is Japanese and Qi is Chinese so I generally use the terminology Qi since I train Internal CMA styles. Also it can be spelled Chi but that is not pinyin that is Wade-Giles and I tend towards pinyin

Now let me say you are talking about training two different things Qi and strength. Actually you are also talking about training 2 different types of Qi as well; internal and external.

Is there strength training in internal martial arts? That depends on what you think. I feel stance training is both strength training, Qi training and it also trains endurance. It is not push ups, sit-ups or running. Nothing wrong with push ups, sit ups and running but it is not training Qi. It will make your body stronger, and this is a good thing and it will ASSIST in training Qi but it is decidedly not training qi. The same as I can change the tires on my car but it still will not run without a good battery and the battery is fairly useless with bad tires. But putting tires on your car will NOT make it run if the battery is weak nor will it increase the flow of electricity in the electrical system, they work together to make a car run well.

You can be an Olympic runner and still have trouble with the slow/low movement of some styles of Tai Chi. and you would be incredibly healthy physically but that DOES not mean you have strong Qi flow. You can have strong Qi but there may be blockages due to OVER Training physically which WILL give you health problems. You can do 1000 push ups but that does not mean you have strong Qi flow either, it means you have strong arms. This could actually block qi or make it very difficult to train it and later cause you health problems.

You may be able to hit VERY hard but you use WAY to much muscular strength for an internal CMA to do it. If you are training qi for martial arts purposes you are training to relax your muscles in order to allow the qi to travel more freely and easily, to be able to direct it where you need it. Look at some of the CMA people that are considered internal CMA masters of their art. They are generally thin and look to be and are in good health and they are very good martial artists. But they do not have big biceps or muscular bodies. And an 80 year old internal master that can hit with the power of a freight train is not doing 1000 push ups a day or running 100 miles. In the old days, WAY BACK before I was 17 (which was also long ago) many internal masters would not train someone if they found them doing a lot of strength training because it was counter productive to training Qi for internal MA. In other words if you were training with a Xingyi master and he found out you were training Shaolin he would tell you to make a choice because they train qi differently, internal vs. external.

And I am sorry but you do not indirectly train Qi, you can train to assist your training of Qi but you do not indirectly train Qi. Training qi is very direct and very focused training.

I am also beginning to think you are confusing having a lot of Qi with training qi and they are not the same. You may want to look for and read the book by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming - "The Root of Chinese Qigong: Secrets for Health, Longevity, and Enlightenment" it will explain qi in great detail.

 

[Jade Tigress]

LOL, the funny thing is I just recentley found out that I learned so much from everyone here without noticing it. I was to busy trying to convince people to agree with me that I didnt notice that I was learning at the same time. You guys are actually right and im wrong. I still have so much to learn!!!!!!. Sorry If I upset anyone by not agreeing with you before, I do now. Thanks everyone for sharing your knowledge with me, PEACE:ultracool

You didn't upset anyone by not agreeing. That's what discussion forums are for, to share and discuss our ideas. The most important thing is that you recognized you learned something. We all have much to learn. The problem comes when we think we already have all the answers. Good luck to you in your training.

 

[SaiyanPrince]

Since you have misinterpreted what I have written previously, than I guess a little misinterpretation on my part is ok

First a clarification; Ki and Qi are the same thing. The difference is Ki is Japanese and Qi is Chinese so I generally use the terminology Qi since I train Internal CMA styles. Also it can be spelled Chi but that is not pinyin that is Wade-Giles and I tend towards pinyin

Now let me say you are talking about training two different things Qi and strength. Actually you are also talking about training 2 different types of Qi as well; internal and external.

Is there strength training in internal martial arts? That depends on what you think. I feel stance training is both strength training, Qi training and it also trains endurance. It is not push ups, sit-ups or running. Nothing wrong with push ups, sit ups and running but it is not training Qi. It will make your body stronger, and this is a good thing and it will ASSIST in training Qi but it is decidedly not training qi. The same as I can change the tires on my car but it still will not run without a good battery and the battery is fairly useless with bad tires. But putting tires on your car will NOT make it run if the battery is weak nor will it increase the flow of electricity in the electrical system, they work together to make a car run well.

You can be an Olympic runner and still have trouble with the slow/low movement of some styles of Tai Chi. and you would be incredibly healthy physically but that DOES not mean you have strong Qi flow. You can have strong Qi but there may be blockages due to OVER Training physically which WILL give you health problems. You can do 1000 push ups but that does not mean you have strong Qi flow either, it means you have strong arms. This could actually block qi or make it very difficult to train it and later cause you health problems.

You may be able to hit VERY hard but you use WAY to much muscular strength for an internal CMA to do it. If you are training qi for martial arts purposes you are training to relax your muscles in order to allow the qi to travel more freely and easily, to be able to direct it where you need it. Look at some of the CMA people that are considered internal CMA masters of their art. They are generally thin and look to be and are in good health and they are very good martial artists. But they do not have big biceps or muscular bodies. And an 80 year old internal master that can hit with the power of a freight train is not doing 1000 push ups a day or running 100 miles. In the old days, WAY BACK before I was 17 (which was also long ago) many internal masters would not train someone if they found them doing a lot of strength training because it was counter productive to training Qi for internal MA. In other words if you were training with a Xingyi master and he found out you were training Shaolin he would tell you to make a choice because they train qi differently, internal vs. external.

And I am sorry but you do not indirectly train Qi, you can train to assist your training of Qi but you do not indirectly train Qi. Training qi is very direct and very focused training.

I am also beginning to think you are confusing having a lot of Qi with training qi and they are not the same. You may want to look for and read the book by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming - "The Root of Chinese Qigong: Secrets for Health, Longevity, and Enlightenment" it will explain qi in great detail.

Cool, thanks for this:boing1:!

 

[SaiyanPrince]

You didn't upset anyone by not agreeing. That's what discussion forums are for, to share and discuss our ideas. The most important thing is that you recognized you learned something. We all have much to learn. The problem comes when we think we already have all the answers. Good luck to you in your training.

Thank you, I understand now:high5:.

 

[SaiyanPrince]

I am also beginning to think you are confusing having a lot of Qi with training qi and they are not the same. quote]


Wait a second....is that what you thought I meant? sorry for mixing it up, I was trying to say physical training gives you more Ki energy, I agree it doesnt train Ki at all, thats a different exercise all together. Correct me if I'm wrong please . OMG, I probally confused everyone here when I said physical exercise trains or develops Ki, thats not what I meant at all SORRY AGAIN:waah:,. I dont know the meaning of many words in English since im from Russia, so the words I used like Training and Developing I took out of context. I thought those words meant "getting more of" but now that I looked up the dictionary, they mean totally different things!!! WOW!

 

[SaiyanPrince]

dang, i dont know how to delete posts.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am also beginning to think you are confusing having a lot of Qi with training qi and they are not the same. quote]


Wait a second....is that what you thought I meant? sorry for mixing it up, I was trying to say physical training gives you more Ki energy, I agree it doesnt train Ki at all, thats a different exercise all together. Correct me if I'm wrong please . OMG, I probally confused everyone here when I said physical exercise trains or develops Ki, thats not what I meant at all SORRY AGAIN:waah:,. I dont know the meaning of many words in English since im from Russia, so the words I used like Training and Developing I took out of context. I thought those words meant "getting more of" but now that I looked up the dictionary, they mean totally different things!!! WOW!

Don't worry about it, I am use to translation problems, my in-laws native language is not English either.

Enjoy the training

 

[bydand]

Really, don't worry about translation problems. I'm in the same boat almost that Xue Shang is in, my Mother-in-Law is from Mass. and I swear to God she doesn't speak English as her first language either.

On a real note, the area I live in has a very heavy French background and 1/2 the people you meet really don't speak English at home, even though they were born in the US. I am used to missed word meanings all the time, kind of figured this may be what was going on here a bit.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Really, don't worry about translation problems. I'm in the same boat almost that Xue Shang is in, my Mother-in-Law is from Mass. and I swear to God she doesn't speak English as her first language either.

On a real note, the area I live in has a very heavy French background and 1/2 the people you meet really don't speak English at home, even though they were born in the US. I am used to missed word meanings all the time, kind of figured this may be what was going on here a bit.

HEY!!! Watch it.... I grew up in Massachusetts

 

[PeaceWarrior]

haha...back on subject now

I think that perhaps it would be accurate to say that even when you are studying an internal art to develop chi, the training will always start out 90% physical and 10% energy. As you continue to train in a totally relaxed manner, with good focus and breathing, gradually the balance tips the other way. You could say that your movements change from more of a "muscle" feeling to a "mind" feeling. This is really hard to explain, its just something you have to feel. And its gradual, nothing happens overnight. Our goal should be 10% physical and 90% energy. That said, there are many more things to understand (and be able to use) in an internal art than simply developing chi, things like yeilding, absorbing, redirecting, becoming super strong in your stance, etc. There is so much to learn. If someone was to simply meditate all the time, without any previous physical training, i dont care how strong their chi is, if they went up against say a boxer, wrestler, or even a good street fighter, they are going to get thumped bad.

 

[SaiyanPrince]

haha...back on subject now

I think that perhaps it would be accurate to say that even when you are studying an internal art to develop chi, the training will always start out 90% physical and 10% energy. As you continue to train in a totally relaxed manner, with good focus and breathing, gradually the balance tips the other way. You could say that your movements change from more of a "muscle" feeling to a "mind" feeling. This is really hard to explain, its just something you have to feel. And its gradual, nothing happens overnight. Our goal should be 10% physical and 90% energy. That said, there are many more things to understand (and be able to use) in an internal art than simply developing chi, things like yeilding, absorbing, redirecting, becoming super strong in your stance, etc. There is so much to learn. If someone was to simply meditate all the time, without any previous physical training, i dont care how strong their chi is, if they went up against say a boxer, wrestler, or even a good street fighter, they are going to get thumped bad.

ROFL:lol:, thats true, and its likley that the person is overweight and is scared of fighting. Thanks for your insight!

 

[Xue Sheng]

ROFL:lol:, thats true, and its likley that the person is overweight and is scared of fighting. Thanks for your insight!

Or they could be a high level Qigong practitioner who sees no reason to fight.

And or the record; training qi by meditation does not equate to overweight. And many people train for many different reasons and the fact that they do not have a strict physical exercise routine does not mean they are out of shape or lacking. They train hard at what they believe is best for them and if they are training high level Qi they tend to avoid the external because it adversely affects the training.

I have tried to train high levels and it is not easy. It takes way too much concentration and the complete lack of concentration at the same time and without a very highly trained teacher available to you 24/7 it can be very dangerous. I no longer work at training high levels.

Additionally many of those that truly and strictly train Qi will out live us all, you should not take that type of training lightly.

 

[PeaceWarrior]

Or they could be a high level Qigong practitioner who sees no reason to fight.

And or the record; training qi by meditation does not equate to overweight. And many people train for many different reasons and the fact that they do not have a strict physical exercise routine does not mean they are out of shape or lacking. They train hard at what they believe is best for them and if they are training high level Qi they tend to avoid the external because it adversely affects the training.

I have tried to train high levels and it is not easy. It takes way too much concentration and the complete lack of concentration at the same time and without a very highly trained teacher available to you 24/7 it can be very dangerous. I no longer work at training high levels.

Additionally many of those that truly and strictly train Qi will out live us all, you should not take that type of training lightly.

Good point. My Sifu is very very high level in Chi Kung, which is only because he was a live in disciple of his Chi Kung master, which took over twenty years to acheive. He is probably almost 70, but he has an uncanny youthful energy that constantly amazes me. Some day I hope to learn from him about training strictly Qi.