Patriotic acts or not?

[Sukerkin]

I think a little more care in word choices and points of view exchanges will get peoples ideas across much more easily.

A re-read of the masthead for this fora would not be amiss:

The Study For the serious discussion of non-martial arts topics including world events, social and political issues, or other items not covered in the other forums. Topics in here should stay focused on their topic, with new threads created where topics split.

Now any discourse of what an individual considers to be patriotic is going to be coloured, even soto voce, by what they consider not to be patriotic. To hold those up as a mirror to reflect your views can help others to understand your point. Just try to keep in mind that those self same views might be ones that others consider very differently.

 

[Xue Sheng]

. That aside, I think you should start your own thread before this one spirals off,

No, I'm saying that if you're going to make this a "is Communism Anti-American" debate, the mod.s might do it for you. As for the rest, I really don't care. The actions of a few idiots in a thought do NOT represent the wishes of the whole. I'm sure there's a logical falacy in there, cann't think of the name though.

Anyways, I'm done with this debate. Mod.s Feel free to do what you need to.

And it just spiraled out of control


To try and get back to point I noticed one thing here that I am not sure they mean the same thing

The question is "patriotic act or not?"

Does this necessarily mean “patriotic American” as Twin fist mentioned?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Some today view the Boston Tea Party as a patriotic act. Others see it as the intentional theft and distruction of private property by an angry mob. Some see the French Revolution as a patriotic act, others as an act of treason against the rightful ruler of a nation. Some today will say that pointing out the constitutional violations of the current US administration are the acts of patriots...others will call those same people traitors.

Patriotism depends on which side of the barricade you stand and die on.

 

[Kacey]

Patriotism depends on which side of the barricade you stand and die on.

This is, I think, the key point. One person's patriotism is another person's treason.

 

[Andrew Green]

this is a contradiction in terms.

You CANNOT be communist and be a patriotic american since communism is the polar opposite of the american ideal.

Plus, they were working to overthrow the democratic, elected government and replace it with a communist one.

That doesnt fly with any definition of patriotism i have ever heard.

Ideals change with time. Was Lenin a patriot? Seems to me his ideals where pretty far from the government that came before the revolution.

The "Patriots" of the American revolution stood up and fought against the ideals of the government that was in place at the time. Where a communist revolution to take place in the US and take over the capitalist model, its leaders would be considered patriots by those that followed them.

Also keep in mind that communism is a economic model, democracy is a government model. The two are not mutually exclusive, communism vs capitalism would be a better comparison.

But both communism and capitalism can exist under either democratic governments or dictatorships, or anything else you can through in there.

And what is "The American Ideal"? It seems that it has undergone a lot of change over the years.

 

[Empty Hands]

Patriotism depends on which side of the barricade you stand and die on.

Exactly. So why then do we all put such stock in such an arbitrary concept? Only because it is useful, not because it is meaningful.

 

[Flying Crane]

patriotic act no one (more or less) would argue with? joining the military

I suppose it might depend on just what the military is being used for at that period of time, and how that meshed with your own notions of how the government and the nation as a whole ought to be behaving.

 

[Twin Fist]

thats the problem that cames with "it's all relative"

EH,
I disagree that the term isnt meaningful. But there will always be differences f opinion on term as nebulous as "patriotism"

 

[celtic_crippler]

Patriotism is simply the love of one's country; therefore, a patriotic act would be a demonstration of that love.

It has nothing to do with loyalties to political parties, religion, or any other self-serving agenda. I would have to say a patriotic act would be a selfless act out of love for one's country....

...I think a decent example would be those that joined the military following 9/11.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Exactly. So why then do we all put such stock in such an arbitrary concept? Only because it is useful, not because it is meaningful.

Well it's a bit like the old song goes: You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything. *shrug*.

http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/tippin-aaron/youve-got-to-stand-for-something-9063.html

 

[Archangel M]

Its easier to stand for nothing. That way you can say you were never on the wrong side of anything. You were never on the right side of anything either.

 

[Empty Hands]

You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.

So because you won't stand for an arbitrary concept, you by definition will stand for nothing? That is a flawed argument. Stand for something that isn't arbitrary. Defense of self and others. Preservation of liberty. Something solid that doesn't flow around like mercury depending on who is trying to (mis)use it for their own purposes.

 

[jkembry]

Patriot Acts....I think are dependent on the person and the intent and beliefs of the person.

I can say that being married to a Brit...her version and my version of Patriotism are different.

She did get a kick out of hearing NPR play "Rule Brittania" last Friday on the 4th of July. I on the other hand wasn't bother much at all about hearing it.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

So because you won't stand for an arbitrary concept, you by definition will stand for nothing? That is a flawed argument. Stand for something that isn't arbitrary. Defense of self and others. Preservation of liberty. Something solid that doesn't flow around like mercury depending on who is trying to (mis)use it for their own purposes.

If it wasn't clear beforehand that things like those you mention were exactly what I was referring to--they were what I was referring to

 

[Nolerama]

There's a lot of talk with patriotism being the love of one's country.

What about the "love" of one's people in that country?

Can one love their countrymen/women but hate their government?

I think it's possible, especially when taken into terms of radicals throughout history.

It's labeled one thing or another when the victor of those conflicts decides to comment on the situation.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

There's a lot of talk with patriotism being the love of one's country.

What about the "love" of one's people in that country?

Can one love their countrymen/women but hate their government?

I think it's possible, especially when taken into terms of radicals throughout history.

It's labeled one thing or another when the victor of those conflicts decides to comment on the situation.

Yes, they can. But, see, the government only rules because we allow it to do so. When it goes too far astray, it's possible to remove it, and put another one in it's place. That can be through election, or armed conflict, or things in between. Those who take such actions, are patriots, as they are following the words of the Founding Fathers, and the DOI in continuing to have a government "of the people, for the people, by the people."

 

[Gordon Nore]

Patriotism is simply the love of one's country; therefore, a patriotic act would be a demonstration of that love...

...I think a decent example would be those that joined the military following 9/11.

Serious question for discussion, not a challenge to anyone: Is a military draftee (eg. Vietnam or Korea) less patriotic than a current voluntary enlistee?

 

[Big Don]

Serious question for discussion, not a challenge to anyone: Is a military draftee (eg. Vietnam or Korea) less patriotic than a current voluntary enlistee?

Did they fight? did they serve? Did they run away to Canada or hide out here?

 

[CuongNhuka]

Did they run away to Canada or hide out here?

Refusing to serve could be just as Patriotic as serving. The differnce comes from if the war is justified.

I don't know if being a draftee makes you less or equally patriotic as a volunter in the military. What I do know is that many of people in Special Forces type units in World War II were volunters, who did so to avoid draftees (Marine Raiders, and Army Paratroopers for example). I know that the Marine Corps refused to take draftees until we were mostly through the War in Vietnam. I also know that many of my freinds in the military (Marines, Army, Army Guard) have all said that they would whatever was needed to get the government to stop using draftees. Anywere from refusing to do there job, to going AWL, to threatening violence. I don't know if they're serious about volence (I kinda doubt it though), I'm also not saying I endorse it. I'm just conveying what they said, so as to allow for others to make more informed posts.

 

[Empty Hands]

If it wasn't clear beforehand that things like those you mention were exactly what I was referring to--they were what I was referring to

Gotcha!