We have a thread on what is patriotism and it is a darn good one but I would like discuss acts that may have been seen as patriotism by some but not by others.
Patriotic acts or not?
- Thread starter tshadowchaser
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CuongNhuka
Senior Master
My mom likes to say that you have to be pretty arogant to run for president. Is that a starting point?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #3
It well could be. Do we really feel that those that run for president are doing so out of patriotism or because they want the power and glory that such a position implies.
For myself I would rather see a person elected that did not run . A dark horse that was selected because those running did not get enough votes
Some one who took the posistion because they where asked not because they had enough money and friends to run for the posistion
For myself I would rather see a person elected that did not run . A dark horse that was selected because those running did not get enough votes
Some one who took the posistion because they where asked not because they had enough money and friends to run for the posistion
Nolerama
Master Black Belt
Here are some that I think are controversially "patriotic":
Being a Republican.
Being a Democrat.
Being Religious.
Being non-religious.
Driving import vehicles.
Joining the military in a war for oil and a military foothold in the Middle East.
Not joining the military in a crusade against Terror.
Buying stock in Chinese industries.
Selling American company stocks to foreign investors.
Thinking No Child Left Behind will eventually work its kinks out.
Making fun of Bush.
Not making fun of Bush.
There are two sides to every coin. And each one can label the other "unpatriotic." It's our right to be able to voice our opinions.
Being a Republican.
Being a Democrat.
Being Religious.
Being non-religious.
Driving import vehicles.
Joining the military in a war for oil and a military foothold in the Middle East.
Not joining the military in a crusade against Terror.
Buying stock in Chinese industries.
Selling American company stocks to foreign investors.
Thinking No Child Left Behind will eventually work its kinks out.
Making fun of Bush.
Not making fun of Bush.
There are two sides to every coin. And each one can label the other "unpatriotic." It's our right to be able to voice our opinions.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #5
some interesting points there.
I was thinking more on the line of those who fought on either side of the civil war. or
Those that threw the tea into Boston harbor.
or how about John Wilkes Booth
I was thinking more on the line of those who fought on either side of the civil war. or
Those that threw the tea into Boston harbor.
or how about John Wilkes Booth
I think the arrogance factor comes in as "I am the ONLY one who can help this Country"
Now THAT'S patriotic! :uhyeah:
My parents without fail take their (U.S.) flag out and fly it during important holidays without fail each year.
I have an American flag sticker on my caving helmet and my coveralls (a sewn on patch) and on my Jeep in two places. I'm going to need a new headliner for the interior of my Jeep... am thinking of asking the guys who install them how much would it be to put in an American flag instead.
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I'd say that the Hollywood Ten and others who defied the House Unamerican Activities Committee back in the 50's were pretty patriotic-even if they were commies.....
Live True
Brown Belt
Here's some interesting thoughts from American history:
The soldiers who "tamed" the wild west and led the Indians on the Trail of Tears
The politicians, clergy, and soldiers that took Hawaiian language and culture out of the schools and eventually removed it's aristocracy...mostly by force
To some, these were patriotic acts for the improvement of America and the enobling of savages...to others it was a crime based on assumed supriority, racism, and misplaced zeal. To most, the truth is somewhere in between.
The soldiers who "tamed" the wild west and led the Indians on the Trail of Tears
The politicians, clergy, and soldiers that took Hawaiian language and culture out of the schools and eventually removed it's aristocracy...mostly by force
To some, these were patriotic acts for the improvement of America and the enobling of savages...to others it was a crime based on assumed supriority, racism, and misplaced zeal. To most, the truth is somewhere in between.
It's a pretty fuzzy subject.
Is it intent we look at? If a person is acting in what they believe to be the best interest of the country, even if they are wrong?
Is it outcome? Had the British not been defeated would Washington be remembered as a traitor rather then a patriot?
Is it group think? Acting in a way that the majority of the population believes is in its best interest is patriotic, regardless of whether or not it actually is.
Is it in symbols? Flag pins on the lapel, flags on the car, on the house, etc. A lot of people seem to think that is it... I find that worrysome.
Is it supporting the decissions made by your country, ie the current government. They where elected by the people, to make decissions for the people, so the people should stand behind them as they choose the officials. A lot of people seem to think that is it, at least when the government is the one they wanted...
Personally I think patriotism is just becoming another marketing word that really doesn't mean anything because it means everything.
Being a fuzzy issue is also something with a long history. Patriotism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism
or as defined by merriam webster (m-w.com):
"one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests"
By that definition I think rebeling against your country and its authorities would definately not be "Patriotism", and this is exactly what those early Americans did, calling themselves Patriots ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_(American_Revolution) )
Is it intent we look at? If a person is acting in what they believe to be the best interest of the country, even if they are wrong?
Is it outcome? Had the British not been defeated would Washington be remembered as a traitor rather then a patriot?
Is it group think? Acting in a way that the majority of the population believes is in its best interest is patriotic, regardless of whether or not it actually is.
Is it in symbols? Flag pins on the lapel, flags on the car, on the house, etc. A lot of people seem to think that is it... I find that worrysome.
Is it supporting the decissions made by your country, ie the current government. They where elected by the people, to make decissions for the people, so the people should stand behind them as they choose the officials. A lot of people seem to think that is it, at least when the government is the one they wanted...
Personally I think patriotism is just becoming another marketing word that really doesn't mean anything because it means everything.
Being a fuzzy issue is also something with a long history. Patriotism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism
or as defined by merriam webster (m-w.com):
"one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests"
By that definition I think rebeling against your country and its authorities would definately not be "Patriotism", and this is exactly what those early Americans did, calling themselves Patriots ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_(American_Revolution) )
OP
- Thread Starter
- #11
I have to think that once the Declaration Of Independence was signed those who fought to keep this country free of British government would be looked at as patriots for this country and traitors to the British government. Those signing the Declaration of Independence would certainly be viewed as traitors to the Crown but patriots to their new country.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #12
This event must be looked at as one of the darkest deeds done in the name of this government, but yes I imagine some of those soldiers might have been viewed as doing a patriotic service but I can not view them in that manner.
Here I go being the cynic again... I find it funny how many people went flag crazy after 9/11, 'cause ya know the terrorists are afraid of all that red, white, and blue...
It's kinda like the people who make their weekly social appearance in church after sinning all week. Or the politicians who push through hate-crime legislation come election year because it's apparently not enough to charge someone with murder if they kill someone because of race or sexual preference. We need to make it an extra-special murder charge.
Ain't empty symbolism grand?
Disclaimer: The flag comment wasn't directed at you, Caver. Your post just reminded me of the flag frenzy post-9/11.
It's kinda like the people who make their weekly social appearance in church after sinning all week. Or the politicians who push through hate-crime legislation come election year because it's apparently not enough to charge someone with murder if they kill someone because of race or sexual preference. We need to make it an extra-special murder charge.
Ain't empty symbolism grand?
Disclaimer: The flag comment wasn't directed at you, Caver. Your post just reminded me of the flag frenzy post-9/11.
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
I have an American flag sticker on my caving helmet and my coveralls (a sewn on patch) and on my Jeep in two places. I'm going to need a new headliner for the interior of my Jeep... am thinking of asking the guys who install them how much would it be to put in an American flag instead.
I was never in High School Civics (since it wasn't offered), but I was in JROTC, and our instructor did talk about something along those lines. He said that using the flag as a patch, button, sticker, or so on is actually desicrating it. I'm not saying anything, just letting you know that that is actually a controversial act.
So folks, what do we have to say about Caver?
Anyways, I'm going to talk about Mr. Booth. I was in Academic Decathalon this last year, and studied the Civil War, what led up to it, and what followed it in more detail then any human being should, unless they think it's just that cool. Here's what I know because of it:
-Lincoln was a racist, who didn't really care about slaves (he actually said as much several times)
-Lincoln was (realisticly) one of the worst Presidents we've ever had (he suspended Habeus Corpus, and did many other no-no's that the President should not be doing)
-Booth was a nut job. (He thought he would go down as a hero, restart the War, and that this time the South would win)
-The only ones who will say (with all good consciousness) that the assissination of Lincoln was a noble/patriotic act is either a Confederate or an insane Libertarian. (not just a Libertarian, but an insane one)
I have spoken.
Nolerama
Master Black Belt
Could you explain the usage of Libertarian? Why not just "anarchist"?
The whole "Lincoln was a racist" bit was, at least according to my understanding, a relatively "new" concept. It was researched and discussed in the late 1990's and threw in that era's existing (general) belief in race/race relations and combined that with the Emancipation Proclamation. Of course by our standards Lincoln was a racist. Most everybody was. He was a President, not a saint.
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
Libertarians want a:
- Completly Free Market (it is arguable that by outlawing slavery Lincoln was infringing in the Free Market); This is NOT intended to be insult to any Libertarians, I am merely stating that slavery could be looked at as a commodity in a free market; I am also using the fact that many who argued against outlawing Slavery said that it would restrict there rights as property owners, which an element of a Libertarian Society.
- As little Government spending as possible (adjusted for inflation, Lincoln spent more then almost any President in US history)
- As little power in the Federal Level of Government as possible (which is exactly what Lincoln didn't do).
- As little power in the hands of the Executive Branch of Government (again, Lincoln did the opposite).
Because of this, Lincoln is actually one of the most hated men in US history acording to hardcore Libertarians.
For more on this subject, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents
I beleive that the Libertarians have a link in there... somewere. It's interesting reading if nothing else.
- Completly Free Market (it is arguable that by outlawing slavery Lincoln was infringing in the Free Market); This is NOT intended to be insult to any Libertarians, I am merely stating that slavery could be looked at as a commodity in a free market; I am also using the fact that many who argued against outlawing Slavery said that it would restrict there rights as property owners, which an element of a Libertarian Society.
- As little Government spending as possible (adjusted for inflation, Lincoln spent more then almost any President in US history)
- As little power in the Federal Level of Government as possible (which is exactly what Lincoln didn't do).
- As little power in the hands of the Executive Branch of Government (again, Lincoln did the opposite).
Because of this, Lincoln is actually one of the most hated men in US history acording to hardcore Libertarians.
For more on this subject, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents
I beleive that the Libertarians have a link in there... somewere. It's interesting reading if nothing else.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
this is a contradiction in terms.
You CANNOT be communist and be a patriotic american since communism is the polar opposite of the american ideal.
Plus, they were working to overthrow the democratic, elected government and replace it with a communist one.
That doesnt fly with any definition of patriotism i have ever heard.
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
Communism needs Democracy. That aside, I think you should start your own thread before this one spirals off, and the mod.s do it for you. Or delete your post for the possiblity of trolling. You do afterall know that there is atleast one Socialist on the board.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
you advising me to delete a post?
good luck with that...
let's see:
patriotic act no one (more or less) would argue with? joining the military
patriotic act some could disagree with: running for office
patriotic act that most people are not gonna get: burning a flag.
mind you, i think flag burning is a cowardly act, borderline treasonous, but i can see how someone MIGHT think they were being patriotic in doing it.
sadly, i have a little too much "it's all relative" in my head to label most things as either one way or another.
good luck with that...
let's see:
patriotic act no one (more or less) would argue with? joining the military
patriotic act some could disagree with: running for office
patriotic act that most people are not gonna get: burning a flag.
mind you, i think flag burning is a cowardly act, borderline treasonous, but i can see how someone MIGHT think they were being patriotic in doing it.
sadly, i have a little too much "it's all relative" in my head to label most things as either one way or another.
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
No, I'm saying that if you're going to make this a "is Communism Anti-American" debate, the mod.s might do it for you. As for the rest, I really don't care. The actions of a few idiots in a thought do NOT represent the wishes of the whole. I'm sure there's a logical falacy in there, cann't think of the name though.
Anyways, I'm done with this debate. Mod.s Feel free to do what you need to.
