Parental Knowledge of TKD

[Gorilla]

Based on what I see at my daughters TKD class I can say for the majority I have to say no.

The Reason is they are watching and observing in a Vacuum. They see what goes on at one school and do not have anything to compare it to.

Not the parents I was thinking of. Once they get a broader perspective it is a quite Eye Opening experience. I went thru the experience of the broader martial arts world when my kids started to do tournaments then Nationals. Then they opened wider when we started to experience team trials and being a part of a National Team. Then my eyes opened wider when we started to go to international tournaments.
Lots of lessons learned!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not the parents I was thinking of. Once they get a broader perspective it is a quite Eye Opening experience. I went thru the experience of the broader martial arts world when my kids started to do tournaments then Nationals. Then they opened wider when we started to experience team trials and being a part of a National Team. Then my eyes opened wider when we started to go to international tournaments.
Lots of lessons learned!

maybe not the parents you were thinking of but your question was

Can a parent non-martial artist have valid opinions about the art/sport.

Some may spend as much as 15-20 hours a week in the Dojang albeit just observing. They may also attend 15-20 tournaments a year. They may have done this for 5 to 15 years. Could they have built up a knowledge base which other Martial Artists might respect.

My answer is still no.

If they stay within only one school or one group of schools for 15 to 20 years, such as the system my daughter is currently in, they are learning in a vacuum and no little about the actual art in this case being TKD.

Does this mean ALL parents that observe a class are the same? Well my answer is again no.

If they are exposed to more, such as the parents you are talking about in the last post then they have a better idea as to what is going on.

But could they have built up a knowledge base which other Martial Artists might respect? That would depend on the individual and the level of their involvement. They do not get a pass simply by osmosis IMO. I sit in my daughter’s class and watch many parents treating the whole thing like a social event and what is happening on the floor means little to them.

 

[Gorilla]

maybe not the parents you were thinking of but your question was



My answer is still no.

If they stay within only one school or one group of schools for 15 to 20 years, such as the system my daughter is currently in, they are learning in a vacuum and no little about the actual art in this case being TKD.

Does this mean ALL parents that observe a class are the same? Well my answer is again no.

If they are exposed to more, such as the parents you are talking about in the last post then they have a better idea as to what is going on.

But could they have built up a knowledge base which other Martial Artists might respect? That would depend on the individual and the level of their involvement. They do not get a pass simply by osmosis IMO. I sit in my daughter’s class and watch many parents treating the whole thing like a social event and what is happening on the floor means little to them.

The second part of my original of my post eludes to a more active parent in regards to involvement.

I respect your opinion. I am sure that it is a widely held. Most assume that parents don't actually pay attention. I am also annoyed by those who treat training like a social club. I try my best to stay out of that type of situation. Martial Arts are a very serious business for my kids and they treat it professionally. Many kids have a hard time relating to them because of their focus. They are shy by nature but they are very focused on training and they don't like the social hour aspect that some teenagers bring to the Dojang and this is usually a reflection of the parents.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The second part of my original of my post eludes to a more active parent in regards to involvement.

I noticed that

I respect your opinion. I am sure that it is a widely held. Most assume that parents don't actually pay attention. I am also annoyed by those who treat training like a social club. I try my best to stay out of that type of situation.

I'm not assuming anything, I see it when I am there, and, yes, it is rather annoying. But it is not all parents and my answer is based on the original question which seemed to qualify it based on time "watching" the class. To me that means nothing, it is dependant on the individual parent

Martial Arts are a very serious business for my kids and they treat it professionally. Many kids have a hard time relating to them because of their focus. They are shy by nature but they are very focused on training and they don't like the social hour aspect that some teenagers bring to the Dojang and this is usually a reflection of the parents.

And that is great, your kids are serious and you are involved and paying attention and like I said, it depends on the individual and the level of their involvement. If all were like you my answer would have been yes.

 

[miguksaram]

Probably not the best title!

Can a parent non-martial artist have valid opinions about the art/sport.

Some may spend as much as 15-20 hours a week in the Dojang albeit just observing. They may also attend 15-20 tournaments a year. They may have done this for 5 to 15 years. Could they have built up a knowledge base which other Martial Artists might respect.

I am looking forward to you opinions. Not trying to stir the pot I think it could be an interesting topic for discussion and can't recall that it has been truly discussed before.

Most definitely. We have several parents that are well versed in the sport aspect of the martial arts. We even have had one of them even sit on a judging board several times when there was a lack of judges for an event. We have never divulged the fact he was just a parent yet he had other BB's come up to him with questions about competition. They have seen him at so many tournaments with his kid they just assumed he was a black belt. ha.ha.ha

Like anything else, if you are exposed to it long enough and take a vested interest in it, ask questions, you can become quite knowledgeable and never have to step on the mat.

 

[puunui]

Depends on what we are practicing. I could see a non-training parent being able to describe what a 'good' kick should look like. They might be able to parrot back some information they heard about hip rotation and feet turning over. This can be helpful.

I will go even further and say that many parents who sit and watch classes everyday for years would make good corner referees. You don't need to be able to do a roundhouse kick to know when one scores.

 

[puunui]

I am not a barber, but when I sit and watch my kid get his hair cut and I notice it's not right I speak up! I have never had a barber tell me that it is irritating or that I am a Non-hair expert or challenging him. I also am not going to wait till after that hair cut to make my comments as it is to late at that point. I have even been so bold to do the same with my kids doctor even though I have never attended medical school! Once in a while I will challenge a teacher and to this day I have never been told that I am out ranked!

But do you go to the barber school or medical school that your child is attending and then chime in and tell them how to teach your kid?

I have never worked at McDonalds, but I have been going long enough to understand when they have screwed up my order!

It is one thing to tell the McDonald's employee that you ordered a Big Mac and not a Quarter Pounder, and it is a different thing to go tell the McDonald's manager how he should train his fry cook to cook your Big Mac.

As a parent, and this is just my opinion your rank does not over rank me as the paying customer! Yes you are the instructor and if my child is attending your school, then I am paying for your service. " I am the instructor" yeah......and???? I am the checkbook!

If your child was my student and you said that to me, I would respond that we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, I would refund every single dime you ever gave me and I would ask you to leave. We had parents in our state who had that attitude. They went from school to school and made a mess where ever they went. The "I am a customer, and I am paying for your service" attitude is to me a big red flag. Almost every instructor who has been teaching for a while understands what I am talking about.

 

[puunui]

Most definitely. We have several parents that are well versed in the sport aspect of the martial arts. We even have had one of them even sit on a judging board several times when there was a lack of judges for an event. We have never divulged the fact he was just a parent yet he had other BB's come up to him with questions about competition. They have seen him at so many tournaments with his kid they just assumed he was a black belt. ha.ha.ha

I should have read your post before submitting mine. I think that it is a good experience for parents to sit as referees, even if it is the dojang during Friday night or Saturday morning sparring class. It gives them an appreciation on how hard it is to officiate under pressure, when you are trying to remain neutral (like a good judge) and not only focused on what your Little Johnny is doing. Ringmaster was good for this.

 

[Gorilla]

I should have read your post before submitting mine. I think that it is a good experience for parents to sit as referees, even if it is the dojang during Friday night or Saturday morning sparring class. It gives them an appreciation on how hard it is to officiate under pressure, when you are trying to remain neutral (like a good judge) and not only focused on what your Little Johnny is doing. Ringmaster was good for this.

It is a tough job!!! Thankless

 

[hal-apino]

But do you go to the barber school or medical school that your child is attending and then chime in and tell them how to teach your kid?

Actually one child is attending a University and yes, I have chimed in on how one particular professor taught! Come to find out I was not the only one that felt that way.

It is one thing to tell the McDonald's employee that you ordered a Big Mac and not a Quarter Pounder, and it is a different thing to go tell the McDonald's manager how he should train his fry cook to cook your Big Mac.

If my fries were cold and undercooked, I actually would suggest to the manager that he needed to re-train his fry cook!

If your child was my student and you said that to me, I would respond that we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, I would refund every single dime you ever gave me and I would ask you to leave. We had parents in our state who had that attitude. They went from school to school and made a mess where ever they went. The "I am a customer, and I am paying for your service" attitude is to me a big red flag. Almost every instructor who has been teaching for a while understands what I am talking about.

Out of the 12 years that my daughter trained she has had the same coaches! First coach she started with when she was 6 then she stayed with him for traditional and trained in Tampa for sparring. Both coaches are still very close friends, When her first coach moved to Ga, she trained traditional with a coach in Coral Springs.

You talk of attitude, however I personally believe that attitude comes into play when an Instructor thinks that parents do not have a right to question his teaching methods. In your earlier statement you said that some parents would make a good corner ref as they have seen a round house long enough to know if it scores. If that is the case and I see an Instructor that I know is not teaching the proper technique should I say nothing?

What is funny is that I use to go out side to get fresh air and Master Park would end up following me out and complain about how she is like "Mike Tyson" ( He was trying to teach her finesse. ) I would say that your job, do what you need to do! We had a mutual respect!

 

[puunui]

Actually one child is attending a University and yes, I have chimed in on how one particular professor taught! Come to find out I was not the only one that felt that way.

You said that to the Professor directly?

You talk of attitude, however I personally believe that attitude comes into play when an Instructor thinks that parents do not have a right to question his teaching methods. In your earlier statement you said that some parents would make a good corner ref as they have seen a round house long enough to know if it scores. If that is the case and I see an Instructor that I know is not teaching the proper technique should I say nothing?

First of all, my comment was to the point you made that you are the customer with the checkbook. I gave you my response to that. What you are talking about above is a different situation.

I think it has to do with approach. I would say that the parent of an underage student has the same rights as the student to politely ask the instructor questions. If you approached me with the attitude that you are a customer with the checkbook, and demanded not only answers to questions but also demanded that the teacher teach a certain way, well, then you already know my response to that. If you politely and respectfully asked me about something (like you did above), then I would give you a corresponding polite and respectful answer.

In the days of the pioneers, students were not allowed to ask questions; but today, questions are not only allowed, but actually encouraged, as long as it is done in the proper fashion. What the proper fashion is I would think would depend on the circumstances and the individuals involved.

Of course, we are talking about a private dojang, which, rightly or wrongly is the kingdom of the head instructor. We are not talking about a public organization such as USAT, which is supposed to be open to everyone. In that case, I do believe that members can and should be able to ask questions and to a certain degree demand answers, especially if the organization has a stated policy of transparency, like USAT does.

 

[hal-apino]

Actually one child is attending a University and yes, I have chimed in on how one particular professor taught! Come to find out I was not the only one that felt that way.

You said that to the Professor directly?





First of all, my comment was to the point you made that you are the customer with the checkbook. I gave you my response to that. What you are talking about above is a different situation.

I think it has to do with approach. I would say that the parent of an underage student has the same rights as the student to politely ask the instructor questions. If you approached me with the attitude that you are a customer with the checkbook, and demanded not only answers to questions but also demanded that the teacher teach a certain way, well, then you already know my response to that. If you politely and respectfully asked me about something (like you did above), then I would give you a corresponding polite and respectful answer.

In the days of the pioneers, students were not allowed to ask questions; but today, questions are not only allowed, but actually encouraged, as long as it is done in the proper fashion. What the proper fashion is I would think would depend on the circumstances and the individuals involved.

Of course, we are talking about a private dojang, which, rightly or wrongly is the kingdom of the head instructor. We are not talking about a public organization such as USAT, which is supposed to be open to everyone. In that case, I do believe that members can and should be able to ask questions and to a certain degree demand answers, especially if the organization has a stated policy of transparency, like USAT does.

You would never kick me out.....I have such a pleasing personality =)

I have never had to interupt a intructor, in fact I think she has had some of the best. However I still believe that because I am paying for a service I have a right to queation and comment. That being said, I have always respected the art and expected my daughter to as well.....In fact I use to laugh when she would bow out of 7-11 and then realize what she did! If you read my first post it said that there has to be a mutal respect, it has to be both ways and the Intructor is not the end all say all because of rank.

 

[ETinCYQX]

If your child was my student and you said that to me, I would respond that we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, I would refund every single dime you ever gave me and I would ask you to leave. We had parents in our state who had that attitude. They went from school to school and made a mess where ever they went. The "I am a customer, and I am paying for your service" attitude is to me a big red flag. Almost every instructor who has been teaching for a while understands what I am talking about.

100%. With all due respect, I am teaching TaeKwonDo and you're paying me to teach the actual TaeKwonDo cirriculum, not whatever you think I should be teaching. The fact that I'm teaching at all in a WTF-certified school means that someone thinks I can do it right, and I put a lot more sway in that someone than a parent who doesn't train. I'll take reasonable assessments and comments into consideration but when push comes to shove I will teach things the way I feel they should be taught.

Of course, I welcome opinions especially from established black belts but I don't respond well to classes being interrupted.

 

[hal-apino]

100%. With all due respect, I am teaching TaeKwonDo and you're paying me to teach the actual TaeKwonDo cirriculum, not whatever you think I should be teaching. The fact that I'm teaching at all in a WTF-certified school means that someone thinks I can do it right, and I put a lot more sway in that someone than a parent who doesn't train. I'll take reasonable assessments and comments into consideration but when push comes to shove I will teach things the way I feel they should be taught.

Of course, I welcome opinions especially from established black belts but I don't respond well to classes being interrupted.

I always had the "best" coaches for my child, I never had to interupt a class I never had an issue with training. My point being is that when you are paying for a service you have a right to expect to get that service. The whole "Rank" thing to me has nothing to do with expecting a service. There are many issues other than teaching that a parent can have a concern with.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I always had the "best" coaches for my child, I never had to interupt a class I never had an issue with training. My point being is that when you are paying for a service you have a right to expect to get that service. The whole "Rank" thing to me has nothing to do with expecting a service. There are many issues other than teaching that a parent can have a concern with.

Never "had" to interrupt classes? That's unacceptable either way, I don't care if the instructor starts teaching Ballet, don't interrupt unless you perceive an immediate danger, which is a whole other ballgame.

Obviously you're not the best example, assuming you train yourself, but the problem with that is most parents don't really have any idea what the curriculum is, and once again the "service" you expect is for your child to learn TaeKwonDo. You do not need to tell the instructor what TaeKwonDo is. He knows. Otherwise he wouldn't be teaching.

Also, while your opinion as a paying parent is valid, it's just as valid for an instructor to refuse to teach your child because you've become a nuisance. Paying your monthly fees does not entitle you to dictate how classes should run.

 

[puunui]

In fact I use to laugh when she would bow out of 7-11 and then realize what she did!

Her instructor could or should have taught her that we salute the flag and not the dojang or the mat or the room. If no flag, then no salutation, whether that is a bow or your hand over your heart, at least in the Korean martial arts.

 

[andyjeffries]

Her instructor could or should have taught her that we salute the flag and not the dojang or the mat or the room. If no flag, then no salutation, whether that is a bow or your hand over your heart, at least in the Korean martial arts.

We've never had a flag in our dojang (it's a part time thing in a leisure/sports centre). However, I've always bowed when entering/leaving the room to my head instructor (or Grandmaster if he's there). If neither of them are in the room, then it's just a room and no need for bowing to it.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I haven't decided what to have students bow to yet. The adults understand the concept anyway but the kids need something concrete.

I don't want to say "Bow in if I'm there". I try hard to direct their respect towards the art rather than towards me. Maybe I'll get a poster of our crest or something and carry it back and forth.

 

[andyjeffries]

I haven't decided what to have students bow to yet. The adults understand the concept anyway but the kids need something concrete.

I don't want to say "Bow in if I'm there". I try hard to direct their respect towards the art rather than towards me. Maybe I'll get a poster of our crest or something and carry it back and forth.

Maybe a way of explaining it is "bow to the most senior person if someone more senior than you is there". It may generally be you, but if you have a higher rank there it'll look very polite.

That way you're not respecting you directly, but someone who is further on the journey be it you or someone else.

 

[ETinCYQX]

That's an excellent idea, thanks Andy.

Never hurts to look good in front of the higher-ups either.