Panhandlers

[shesulsa]

Well, here in the major cities there is a waiting list for some benefits. When I left California, there was a two-year waiting list for housing assistance. There are not enough donations to the food banks to feed even 25% of our indigent populus. The cost of living is so high it is extremely difficult to get by even on government assistance. Families who are having a hard time can't be together on assistance, they must split up in order to get assistance - especially housing - leaving one in housing and one on the street and divorced as required.

I guess if one is not a spiritual person or just doesn't give a good God darn about the sanctity of human life, the importance of humility, the heavenly mandate that we who walk this plane are all brethren who must look out for one another, the need to not only give a helping hand but to get one from time to time as well, the value of generosity in the face of poverty, the idea of approaching life from a standpoint of gratitude and living from the heart, one is a shell and must, therefore be calloused.

I guess that since I have been the recipient of another's generosity, I fell compelled - no, driven - to pay it back and pay it forward. If one lives as a shell and refuses to connect with humankind in this manner based on some vile need to hoard one's assets, snack food and pocket change, so they must be judged in the end and so they will reap when they are in need.

I guess people like me and Paul have the incredible task of making up for ignorant fools who can't put their own face on the panhandlers in front of them.

Georgia Ketchmark

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Now, I dont know how things are in the USA, but in Australia we have a very good welfare system. They will give you housing, unemployment benefits, disability pension, basically everything you need to get yourself back on your feet. There is really no excuse for someone to be living on the street and begging. I feel no pity for them. I'm callous, and I'm comfortable with that.

When I visited Australia I was very very impressed with the dole and the social support systems. If I may make a broad generalization - it's much better there than it is here in the USA. MUCH.

 

[shesulsa]

When I visited Australia I was very very impressed with the dole and the social support systems. If I may make a broad generalization - it's much better there than it is here in the USA. MUCH.

I digress. The only travelling I've done outside of the contiguious United States is to Mexico and the Hawaiian Islands. I got to see some serious poverty in both places. So I'm not familiar with how they do things Down Under or in the UK.

If the support system is so excellent, one might wonder about panhandlers more than one might here, I suppose. Please excuse me if I came off as harsh to you Adept. And I don't know where Oak Bo is from.

 

[Oak Bo]

It had much much more to do with my ex-husband's laziness.

My point exactly.

 

[Oak Bo]

Though I agree that we live in the victim generation, your post leans towards callousness and I have a hard time believing that you really think that gumption is the sole answer to homelessness and poverty in the United States.

The sole answer absolutley not.
Unfortuntely, there has to be many answers to help solve this problem in the U.S. The ones I feel bad for are the young children that lost there folks in a house fire, or the 88 year old lady down the street who lost her husband 12 years ago, and now has no one to help her as the Diabetes takes her sight. Or the poor folks who have some mental disabilities and are rambling to themselves all day. Now that's sad and terrible, and all of us need to find away to pull together and help each other out with those types of things. We know the politicians don't give a damn unless it's time from some votes, and then its all swept under the carpet once that person is in office.

The one's I wont feel sorry for are those that can help themselves but dont or wont, or take the easy way out by asking for a hand out, or are looking for some way to scam the public.

 

[someguy]

Where I live I see a guy every day checking the dumpster. He never asks for money. As such well I'm not going to run him down and give him money.

If I have change from a purchase as I'm coming out of a store I can do one of to things. Take 5 extra steps and do something with that change or hang on to $.37.
Well sure I could save that change and at some point do something with it but thats too much work. I'm to lazy not to be charitable.
If you want to discuss poverty and the causes and stuff I think there was a thread on that a ways back. Hmm maybe at some point I'll look it up. Nah to lazy.

 

[shesulsa]

It should be pointed out that as good as any government support system is, there remains a section of the populus who is still in need.

I would rather help these people out than have them break into my house or steal from the store or rob someone so they can buy food.

 

[dearnis.com]

The problem is that way too many of these folks have their own agenda. I have seen (and been on the recieving end of) requests for assistance that were the start of a pre-assault interview. It is all very well to say that we have poor support systems for those in need, and this may be the case. We also provide far too much support to many who are simply abusing the system.

Just another ignorant fool I suppose.

 

[MA-Caver]

Speaking as one who has been there (more than once I'm afraid) I'll answer with a soft voice but I won't answer for all of the homeless because I'm not a collective I'm an individual whose part of the whole.

Ok, talk about stacked decks. True, my life it seems is one big stacked deck after another. I ascend and then I fall back down again... repeatedly. But, I do pull myself back up ... with the help of friends and occasionally the state welfare agencies. Sometimes it's enough of a help that I'm actually able to fend for myself and be comfortable and get out of the survival mode and actually start living. Sometimes, that life is short-lived and something goes kablooee and I'm on that "downward spiral". Trust me, I will try to stop it best as I can. Sometimes however I'll slide for a while until I can see the edge and then scramble before going over, (ya, speaking in metaphors here but the best analogy I can come up with).
Each state has it's own welfare system, and each state dictates a policy of help and how much. Some states will go the route of the revolving door and others will do (what I call) the circus route and make the person requesting assistance jump through hoops to receive the help they need (food, cash assistance, etc.). A lot of people become dependent upon the system and have abused it severely. I've seen people live quite well off "the government's tit", while for others the milk is rather bitter and sour. Sometimes it's too sour.
For panhandlers that really want to get out of the crap-storm they're in ... a couple of bucks (even a $10 or a generous $20) won't do it. It ($10-20) may cover for a couple of days at best. Remind yourself how far ten bucks will carry ya on an average day if you got no food at home (or no home at all)... try pretending and then mulitply that by 365 days or even 180 days.
I'm not saying start writing out a check for half your savings or anything like that but if all you can do is all you can do then all you can do is enough because at least you're trying to help... and that is what counts.

The one thing Paul (and the rest of you) that sometimes keeps a person from helping themselves or getting help is pride. Sometimes some folks want to live that way. The why's are as individual as the people themselves; low self-esteem, extreme bitterness at society where they want to "disassociate" themselves from it (in their minds they are doing just that), fear ... and that one covers a lot. Fear of success, fear of failure, fear of just plain trying. It's human, it's something that isn't always easy to control or overcome. Sometimes biting the bullet breaks a few teeth. Kinda hard to continue with that kind of pain isn't it?

Others do want to get out and stay out. But it's tough. Very tough. Bad work histories really are what kills the average joe trying to stand back up again. It's a long long hard process and without the "right" kind of support and right kind of support group... they'll keep sliding. One analogy I heard that seems apt... like trying to run on a sheet of ice slanted slightly up hill on a warm day in worn out sneakers. Get enough momentum going and you just might have that part-time/full-time job and get that income started and maybe make enough to get that deposit/first and last month's rent for that run-down apartment building you're hoping to get into. You might make that in two or three paychecks... Ahh but wait.. a paycheck might be two weeks apart... three weeks for the first one in some cases. So how to keep showering and clothes cleaned during that time? How to feed yourself (even better... how to feed the family?). Saving money, enough of it is very hard under those conditions. Minimum wage just-doesn't-cut it when one is out of ...well, just about every thing.
Ah the welfare system ... that's what it's there for. Yes.
Some people are just natural screw-ups. You've seen them... at work, school, day to day stuff. Even they would screw up something like the welfare system and are denied the help they so desperately need because papers didn't get turned in on time, not enough job applications in the job search, not keeping the job long enough and so on and so on, (remember... been there and done that okay?). The workers at the welfare offices do their jobs and some of them do it quite well. But they're just as frustrated as the ones trying to get the help. Very hard for them to sort out the scammers and the desperates. Very hard to sort out the ones who have the capabilities and the ones who need more help than they realize. Very hard to work with those who are ignorant or unskilled. It's a tough job and to make it even tougher they have to adhere to policy as dictated by the state.
They're very much (in my experience), in that "you're asking us for help? Prove it to me by doing what I need you to do. Show me that you're really trying here". Some will try hard, some will try for a little bit, some not at all, some will try but have that infamous "stacked deck". How do you know which is which?
Lots of jobs out there but lots of jobs that aren't paying the money needed to get out of whatever hole that some people are finding themselves in. Like I said, minimum wage just doesn't cut it, which I believe is .. what? $5.15 an hour times 38-40 hours then minus taxes and then minus food for a week or two weeks then minus shelter fees (hotels or cheap apts) then minus transportation (public and private?) then ... wow a "couple of bucks". Well at least I can eat at the McDonalds I'm working at... oh no, you gotta pay half the cost of the food.
Stacked deck indeed. A stacked deck and a few aces missing.
It's very tiring work. Even more so when the light at the end of the tunnel is just a pin-prick far far away. It's there but damn it takes a while to get there. Sometimes not soon enough. Reality rears it's ugly head; rent is due, get hurt on the job, get really sick, other bills come in, car breaks down (because it was a POS to begin with), and so on. Kinda like what John Lennon sang once... "life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."

We can help out best that we may and best that we do. But we all got our own lives to live don't we? What we each earn we've learned to live within those means and the thought of giving is sometimes a bitter pill, sometimes not. It's how we see things and it's a measure of our character and above all it's a measure of the amount of love we have in our hearts.

I read a wonderful book once and highly recommend it... "The Story of B" by Daniel Quinn. Very insightful and related to the discussion here. Reviews can be found on Amazon.com

 

[lonecoyote]

I don't see many posts by people who have admitted they had to do it. I did. If you think its easy, you're wrong. If you think that I wouldn't have rather done anything than ask a stranger for money, you're wrong. It is difficult, demeaning, and puts a hole inside of you. Working is easier, no matter the job, it is much easier. Panhandling is not the easy way out, if you think it is, try it. And being homeless can be a special kind of hell for some people, so I know better than to hold it against them for using a couple of dollars for a bottle of wine. What are they going to do with your two dollars instead, invest it and watch it grow into a nest egg that will enable them to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps? No, because it is just Two Dollars. It might be the last two dollars they see that day. So it's either buy a sandwich, which they might do, or go for the wine and maybe forget they're homeless for a while. That's fine with me. Have a drink on me, I don't drink anymore anyway so there's some left over.

 

[shesulsa]

Lonecoyote and Ralph ... :asian:

I know it takes guts to post personal pain on this board. The hope is always (I think) to share and instill passion and compassion. I think this is the purpose of pain in people's lives. Thanks for sharing.

SS

I don't see many posts by people who have admitted they had to do it. I did. If you think its easy, you're wrong. If you think that I wouldn't have rather done anything than ask a stranger for money, you're wrong. It is difficult, demeaning, and puts a hole inside of you. Working is easier, no matter the job, it is much easier. Panhandling is not the easy way out, if you think it is, try it. And being homeless can be a special kind of hell for some people, so I know better than to hold it against them for using a couple of dollars for a bottle of wine. What are they going to do with your two dollars instead, invest it and watch it grow into a nest egg that will enable them to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps? No, because it is just Two Dollars. It might be the last two dollars they see that day. So it's either buy a sandwich, which they might do, or go for the wine and maybe forget they're homeless for a while. That's fine with me. Have a drink on me, I don't drink anymore anyway so there's some left over.

 

[Erik]

Some of these people just refuse to work. My sister is 1 step away from this and steadfastly believes the world owes her a living. She and her pals sit around watching TV and getting high discussing how to cheat the system, how to get more food stamps if you complain of stomach trouble, etc.

There was a guy in my old college town whose parents were both professors and yet he made plenty of money being semi-homeless. It a good money sometimes and you get to hang out and smoke pot all day.

Another guy was hassling my roommate for money - young guy, early 20s, looked reasonably fit. My roommie turned to him and said "J - O - B - get one." The guy started making excuses and my roommie pointed out that he joined the military before graduating from high school (he was 17) and was in Pararescue before 19. He was a little guy, too - 135 lbs.

Some of these guys are just unable to take care of themselves, though they try. Some are plain old nuts - psychotic, schizophrenic, etc.

I've offered one guy some warm food and he threw a temper tantrum at me. Seems he was more interested in cash for booze or drugs.

I know times are hard, but there are tons of folks out there who just cannot be bothered.

 

[Flatlander]

I don't think it reasonable to neglect the needy because of displeasure with the lazy. By the sounds of things most are able to discern the difference between the two, so.....

Why don't we approach this by looking at an analogy? We all know that there have been, are, and will continue to be politicians who will abuse the system, cheat, and otherwise behave poorly. Is becoming disillusioned, and choosing to abstain from voting or lobbying or otherwise being involved the appropriate solution? Things don't change if nobody tries to change them, similarily, the needy don't get fed if we justify our unhelpingness* based upon wanting to punish the lazy.



*I'm sure that's not a word, but you get the point.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Snaps to shesulsa and flatlander.

I like "unhelpingness" as a word.

 

[shesulsa]

... once one's appearance begins to wane, it is increasingly difficult to get a job. Can you honestly say that if one of the people you don't feel bad for applied for a job at your place of business with no skills, no training, no high school diploma, no address, no identification but had a willing-to-learn and can-do attitude, would you hire him or her despite the smell and filth of their clothing?

Hate to be redundant, but I still have not had a reply to this question which was posed to Oak Bo, but anyone defending their rejection of panhandlers is welcome to answer.

 

[shesulsa]

Snaps to shesulsa and flatlander.

I like "unhelpingness" as a word.

Hey, me too! Let's declare it so! It's so much nicer than unhelpfulness, which I think the Grammar Nazis use. :ultracool

 

[Oak Bo]

Can you honestly say that if one of the people you don't feel bad for applied for a job at your place of business with no skills, no training, no high school diploma, no address, no identification but had a willing-to-learn and can-do attitude, would you hire him or her despite the smell and filth of their clothing?

No I sure wouldn't. Not since I work with sharp objects and such, would you!? Let me ask you this; How about you invite one of those you feel so sorry for and have them babysit your kids for a half hour or so. You can pay them 40 or 50 dollars while you run to the store for a few items. That's 100 dollars an hour, that's much more than minimum wage. Babysitting isn't a hard job, and I'm sure you would feel great having them watch your kids while you're gone.

I stated my opinion on the matter, you can choose to agree, to disagree, or to stay neutral, that's up to you. As far as I know we are all still have a right to our opinions, wheather it meets with your approval or not.

Sorry if I'm not Oprahized enough for you. But that's your problem, deal with it.

 

[shesulsa]

No I sure wouldn't. Not since I work with sharp objects and such, would you!?

I have worked with people like this before, so ... on a probationary program, yes, I would.

Let me ask you this; How about you invite one of those you feel sorry for and have them babysit your kids for a half hour or so. You can pay them 40 or 50 dollars while you run to the store for a few items. That's 100 dollars an hour that's much more than minimum wage. Babysitting isn't a hard job, and I'm sure you would feel great having them watch your kids while you gone.

My home is not my place of business, so this doesn't really work for me. Could you try another example, please? Besides, babysitting my children is a job not even my very own mother gets.

I stated my opinion on the matter, you can choose to agree, to disagree, or to stay neutral.

Yes, I know, thank you. I already made that choice, but thanks for pointing it out all the same.

Sorry if I'm not Oprahized enough for you. But that's your problem, deal with it.

There's no need to get personal. I'm trying very hard to avoid flaming or sniping. We are having a discussion and we happen to not agree, I just so want to understand more of your opinion - I don't care to change it or you or - *ahem* - "Oprahize" you in any way, shape or form. That is, unless you are giving cars or cash away. :boing1:

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Sorry if I'm not Oprahized enough for you. But that's your problem, deal with it.

Defensive much?

Picking a babysitting-kids job is pretty selective. Most parents will scarcely trust anyone with their kids, let alone someone who may not be looking or smelling too good. That does not necessarily mean that that person does not deserve, or should not get, a job, a home, etc.

 

[Oak Bo]

There's no need to get personal. I'm trying very hard to avoid flaming or sniping. We are having a discussion and we happen to not agree, I just so want to understand more of your opinion - I don't care to change it or you or - *ahem* - "Oprahize" you in any way, shape or form.

Flame away I could careless.