My "If you're not Catholic, shut up" rant

[shesulsa]

Not too many people get to tell me to shut up.

IN ALL FAIRNESS:

Those who believe idiot media stories designed to fill time because either censorship or lazy-*** reporters can't produce quality, fair and accurate news should be educated better - and THAT's awholenuther bawl-o-wax.

Many organizations, schools, celebrities, citizens, etcetera get crappy exposure because of crappy reporting. Dude - it's the Dirty Laundry Axiom ... people find this **** entertaining because we've become a culture of rage junkies. It's easy to rage against the RCC. And religion. And the democrats. And so on ....

IN ALL FAIRNESS:

It IS imperative to closely monitor and critique organization with (arguably) too much power - that border on cultism, and frankly this is what the RCC has always seemed to be to me.

Was the article fair and accurate? No. Is the RCC fair? No. What may seem to some faithful, practicing Catholics as divinely inspired doctrine appears to others as simply mind-control through obedience and suffering.

SO ... in the age of convenience, one has to wonder just how much we sacrifice in so very many ways just to be able to do more, go more places, be more portable, have convenience to go along with us. Does it make life simpler or does it demean the divine spirit?

"Don't pray in the synagogues, pray alone in your room." ;-)

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not too many people get to tell me to shut up.

I am guessing anyone who crazy enough to tell you shut up is way too late for confession and they should just start praying (period)

 

[Rich Parsons]

As a Catholic, I am always amazed at the number of non-Catholics, both Christian and non-Christian, including non-religious, who have a lot to say about the workings of the Catholic Church. My take on it has always been that a) if they're not Catholic, they most likely don't understand it, and b) what business is it of theirs anyway and c) why does it bother them what rules the Catholic Church imposes on its members if they're not affected by those rules in any way?

I'm not talking about scandals here, mind you; when a Priest is a sexual abuser or predator, that clearly affects more than just the Catholic Church; and so do internal coverups and all that sort of thing. I'm just talking about dogma; the internal rules and precepts that govern the internal workings of the RCC.

The latest to catch my eye really has me irritated. The so-called 'iPhone Confessional' brouhaha.

The RCC requires that practical Catholics confess their sins every so often to a Priest, who hears them under the seal of the confessional, and then metes out the Sacrament of Penance and absolves the penitent (forgives in Christ's name) the sins confessed. Catholics believe that Christ gave the Church the power to forgive sin in His name.

Prior to going to confession, a Catholic is supposed to diligently search their conscience and call to mind their sins. How to do this and what kind of sins are covered in the training that Catholic receive at a young age or during the conversion process if they come to the Church later in life. But it can be a bit of a difficult mental exercise to go through one's memory and try very hard to take note of when has broken the Commandments in both sins of commission and sins of omission (things one has done and things one has failed to do). It's not quite like Hollywood portrayals, ie, "I took the Lord's name in vain six times since the last confession." "Say six Hail Mary's and four Our Father's, my son. Your sins are forgiven."

So here comes this iPhone app that simply allows a Catholic to go through the commandments, think about what they've done and not done, even have their memory jogged, and then tick off boxes indicating what they need to resolve with their Priest. The idea is no different than a piece of scratch paper and having the Bible readily at hand, really, it's just more convenient.

It was developed in a small diocese and approved by a local bishop. And I agree; it seems like a very useful app. Seems to me like it might remind Catholics that they are required to confess, and help them examine their consciences and remember what they did or didn't do and what they need to report to their Priest in the Confessional.

But the press reported it and they of course made a total mess of it. First, they reported that Rome says that Catholics can confess to their iPhones instead of a priest in a confessional. NO, NO, NO! Rome never approved it, a local bishop did. And one does not 'confess' to the iPhone app, one merely makes notes of one's sins to be reported to one's Priest in the confessional.

Now that they've misreported who approved the app, and what the app does, they're gathering shocked reactions from Catholics and non-Catholics alike, as well as shocked clergy who hadn't heard the true story but only read the idiotic headlines about 'robo-confession' and reacted angrily to what was not even true in the first place.

It ticks me off. Folks, if you're not Catholic, confession has nothing to do with you. If you are Catholic, this app is nothing more than a memory-jogging app that helps you to examine your conscience, make notes, and then help remember them when you speak to your Priest in the Confessional. There's no automatic forgiveness, no robo-confessional, and no, Rome hasn't approved the app - Rome doesn't have to. In fact, no one has to. If a Priest chooses to ban an iPhone in the confessional, one can always simply write down the list of sins one wishes to confess and take those in after using the iPhone app.

Most Catholic churches report that Confession is way way down in popularity; people just don't confess much anymore. It takes time, it's embarrassing, it makes some people feel badly about themselves, and of course, there is the Penance one must do. But it is required of a practical Catholic; anything that makes it easier to prepare for Confession and then actually go to Confession seems to me to be a pretty good idea.

But it will probably end up being withdrawn because of idiot reporters and non-Catholics who have strong opinions about things they don't understand and which don't affect them anyway.

OK, I feel better now. Rant over. Thanks for reading!

Bill,

I have not read the thread I have only read this post and the first post in this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93495

One of the arguments against legalizing same-sex marriage has been that it opens the floodgates to changing the definition of marriage to include all sorts of things, including polygamous marriage. This has routinely been pooh-poohed by proponents of same-sex marriage, who insist that same-sex marriage does not create a 'slippery slope' condition and won't lead to any such thing.

I think the facts are becoming clear. This is about Canada - I don't think it will be long before similar court cases appear in the USA...

http://www.zenit.org/rssenglish-31673



It's the same with gun control; every time a regulation is insisted upon, the promise is that there will be no further demands. Every time, this promise doesn't last long. Same-sex marriage in Canada; and now polygamy? What's next? And let's not pretend there won't be a 'next'. Of course there will. Any such statement is silly on its face.

Personally I think you should look at what you have said and think about it.

I as a non Catholic am not allowed to comment abotu the Catholic Church, yet you are allowed to call things Silly and insult people and their religious beliefs.

I really think you are asking for it to be your way only and for everyone else to Shut up.

This is my personal problem with most religous people in general. They all think everyone should think like they do. And are mad when they do not.

You take your Morals and try to apply them directly to Law.

Personally I think and based upon how this country is set up it should operate similar to this:

Morals => Values => Ethics => law

People can be influenced with a Cultural Moral or a Religious Moral or both or they might be the same.

One can take their Morals and live by a set of personal values. These values are what they hold to be "good" for them and for society.

One can argue then about these Values and are they Ethical within a said society.

i.e. applying your religous morals to others by law. I believe it to be unethical and also to be unconstitutional as it is holding one religion above the others. In this case, it would Christianity in general.

So make your points, but try not to be insulting and name calling and you might get people of different view points to consider your arguements.

As a society we can thake what is ethical and or unethical and create a law around that.


Yet, when someone goes straight from religious Morals to Law, I have a problemw with their arguement.

How does multiple partners effect how you raise your kids in your home? You have the option to private school and home school, so they do not need to interact with others in public.

I am not trying to get into a heat discussion with you about your religion, but instead to try to engage you to think in a more critical manner and express your points better without being negative and insulting.

And no, I am not a Mormon either.

 

[Ramirez]

"Butting in" about what we consider MURDER is something we should "shut up" about???

Comparing our stance on abortion to what we see as intentional misrepresentation of the sacrament of confession is a stretch.

Nice try though.

And why should the Catholic Church extend it mores to anyone except Catholics? If the Church wants to say its adherents can't have same sex marriage or an abortion, fine, when it tries to force it mores on anyone else, well then non-Catholic have license to comment on the Catholic Church. It isn't so much these issues but the fact the RC tries to extend its influence beyond Catholics, those were just examples.


Nice try on creating a straw man though.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Bill, I sympathise with you, and I agree that the news articles that you quoted sounded deliberately deceiving. But as far as the whole "If you're not Catholic, shut up" thing is concerned, this forum's chock full of posts commenting from the outside about religious practices and beliefs. Christianity, Islam, Catholicism, atheism etc. have all been commented on by posters who have only a surface understanding of their topic. I'm not accusing you specifically of doing so, but it's really nothing new.

 

[yorkshirelad]

This is a strange report. I can't even comprehend why a journalist would want to write an article about this. Catholics have been praying to lifeless statues for years, and now they are asking forgiveness through an iphone they are getting negative attention.

There are soooo many more important things journalists should be writing about to do with the Catholic church like:

How Ratzinger was instrumental in sacrificing innocent children by protecting pedophiles so that his precious organisation wouldn't suffer.

How the Catholic church make billions off the back of the poorest nations on earth through spiritual cohersion.

How the catholic church was the greatest political stunt in history. Constantine unifying the Roman pagan church and christianity by merely naming the minor pagan gods with christian saint names and of course the worship of "The Blessed Virgin" proves this.

How the vile Cardinal Law was relocated to the Vatican to avoid possible prosecution for protecting child molesters.

I was born a Catholic (I'm thankfully not anymore) and it chaps my *** when Catholics tell me not to comment about their religion especially when the Churches vile actions effect us all.

 

[jks9199]

This is a strange report. I can't even comprehend why a journalist would want to write an article about this. Catholics have been praying to lifeless statues for years, and now they are asking forgiveness through an iphone they are getting negative attention.

There are soooo many more important things journalists should be writing about to do with the Catholic church like:

How Ratzinger was instrumental in sacrificing innocent children by protecting pedophiles so that his precious organisation wouldn't suffer.

How the Catholic church make billions off the back of the poorest nations on earth through spiritual cohersion.

How the catholic church was the greatest political stunt in history. Constantine unifying the Roman pagan church and christianity by merely naming the minor pagan gods with christian saint names and of course the worship of "The Blessed Virgin" proves this.

How the vile Cardinal Law was relocated to the Vatican to avoid possible prosecution for protecting child molesters.

I was born a Catholic (I'm thankfully not anymore) and it chaps my *** when Catholics tell me not to comment about their religion especially when the Churches vile actions effect us all.

It might help if you didn't deliberately mis-state and confuse actions of individuals with matters of the Catholic Faith.

Catholics do not "pray to lifeless statues." We do ask the Communion of Saints (all those who have died and are in heaven), especially those named and recognized saints whose lives here on Earth were exemplary and give us all hope, for their intercession. We ask Mary, the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ, for her intercession as well. Statues -- including the Crucifix -- are nothing but images; we don't expect them to do anything at all and don't need them to pray. Asking the Saints and the Blessed Mother for their intercession isn't all that different than asking someone who'se in a position to influence a decision to in your favor The issue of this app as a means of receiving the Sacrament of Confession has already been addressed at length above.

The actions, such as moving and hiding child molester priests, are indeed reprehensible, and the Church has quite deservedly taken a whole lot of heat over it. The Church remains an institution made up of men, and in that sense is fallible. Infallibility is limited to issues of faith and morals.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Asking the Saints and the Blessed Mother for their intercession isn't all that different than asking someone who'se in a position to influence a decision to in your favor The issue of this app as a means of receiving the Sacrament of Confession has already been addressed at length above.

.

Yes, I know, necromancy is rife in the Catholic church, which, if I'm not mistaking was expressly prohibited by....yes you guessed it, God. Graven images are also prohibited. If I'm not mistaken, the sexual abuse of minors is also prohibited. It would seem however, that the practise of pedophilia was practised for generations by ordained members of the Catholic Church and covered up by it's leaders.

It must have been a dreadful inconvenience to Rome when secular governments and media sources began to uncover the truth. After all those tithes need to keep flowing if the Vatican is going to keep hold of it's priceless real estate and art collection. The Pope also needs a priceless ring on his finger for his minions to kiss.

Sorry, i'll try to stick to the OP. What's all this about I-Phones and confessions?

 

[yorkshirelad]

The actions, such as moving and hiding child molester priests, are indeed reprehensible, and the Church has quite deservedly taken a whole lot of heat over it. The Church remains an institution made up of men, and in that sense is fallible. Infallibility is limited to issues of faith and morals.

Quite true, all institutions are fallible, but doesn't botter you the Cardinal Law was a member of the enclave the voted Ratzinger in as Pope. It bothers me to know that the only time during generations of abuse that the Catholic hierarchy expressed regret, was after they were caught. I remember when Brendan Smith was caught in Ireland back in 94 or 95. It made my stomach turn.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Private confession is something that only got started in the 7th century
http://www.justforcatholics.org/a23.htm
So one can hardly argue that Jesus himself or any of his direct disciples thought it was necessary or of any religious significance.

Looking at the timeframe in which it was instituted, in those days, the church had far less scruples and major political ambition. It would seem that -on top of the supposed religious significance- it would be of great value for the church and the clergy to have the dirt on everybody so they could lean on them. And by dressing it up like this, people actually handed it over themselves.

 

[Sukerkin]

All are points worthy of discussion, my fellow posters - but not utterly pertinent to what the OP is about.

I know that what Bill was trying to say in a general sense, was that when people who are not of his faith take pot-shots at it then it irks him. I also know that the counterpoint being made is that the Catholic Church (or "Papist Traitors" as they are known in my monarchist house ) has not been shy about putting it's views forward too.

But the core point of the OP was that a false story was made about a phone app and then that false story was turned into a stick to bear the Catholic church with. That's why, despite my views on all churches, I was sympathetic to Bill's irritation - I'd feel the same in his shoes.

What I'm blundering at is trying to say, I suppose, is that these issues that have been raised 'on the side', so to speak, could very well be aired and elaborated on in threads of their own.

 

[yorkshirelad]

All are points worthy of discussion, my fellow posters - but not utterly pertinent to what the OP is about.

I know that what Bill was trying to say in a general sense, was that when people who are not of his faith take pot-shots at it then it irks him. I also know that the counterpoint being made is that the Catholic Church (or "Papist Traitors" as they are known in my monarchist house ) has not been shy about putting it's views forward too.

But the core point of the OP was that a false story was made about a phone app and then that false story was turned into a stick to bear the Catholic church with. That's why, despite my views on all churches, I was sympathetic to Bill's irritation - I'd feel the same in his shoes.

What I'm blundering at is trying to say, I suppose, is that these issues that have been raised 'on the side', so to speak, could very well be aired and elaborated on in threads of their own.

Fair point Mark! The point that I'm trying to get at it, is that there are many more stories to use as a stick to beat the Catholic church with. In fact, if I believed that Satan himself existed in the anthropological sense believed by catholics, then he would be waving with his good friend Ratzinger on the balcony over St. Peter's square.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Fair point Mark! The point that I'm trying to get at it, is that there are many more stories to use as a stick to beat the Catholic church with. In fact, if I believed that Satan himself existed in the anthropological sense believed by catholics, then he would be waving with his good friend Ratzinger on the balcony over St. Peter's square.

I meant anthropomorphical not anthropological....sorry!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Sorry I've missed out on the anger.

To restate in a simpler manner; in my opinion, anything which the Catholic Church does which affects people outside the Church are fair targets of criticism. I think I said that in my initial post; somehow that got ignored. As I said, I have no beef with anyone, Catholic or not, who has comments to make about the bad things which Catholic clergy have done and are accused of covering up. My ire was directed at those who are not Catholic, yet feel compelled to criticize the dogma of the Catholic Church, and worse, who get it wrong, apparently intentionally, and then hold it up to public ridicule.

With regard to the comments that Catholics feel privileged to comment on public issues such as abortion and other political issues, I have no apology to make. As a US citizen and a Catholic, I have exactly as much right to criticize our abortion policy as anyone of any faith or no faith at all does. I am not less a citizen because I am Catholic. My Catholicism does not give me the right to criticize; my citizenship does.

I agree that the Catholic Church has much to answer for; I am as disappointed and angry with the Church over recent issues as anyone. However, I have no issue with those who are not Catholic and who are as angry as I am over those crimes.

However, for non-Catholics to criticize the dogma of the church, especially dogma they don't understand and misreport, makes me ticked off. Thus, my rant.

Catholics do not pray to Mary, we don't engage in idolotry, we don't believe the Pope is infallible, and we don't confess to iPod applications. If anyone thinks we do, fine. If they write that in a newspaper article, then not fine. I got a problem with that. Do you have a problem with me having a problem with that?

 

[Bruno@MT]

I moved the 'prayer' discussion to a new thread.
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93874
If you want to continue that angle, please do it in that thread.