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Hot Lunch

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He... made some okay movies.
Cult classics, sure. But if you look at them from the viewpoint of a professional movie critic, I wouldn't even say his movies were "okay." Watching Bruce Lee movies was like watching late night Cinemax in the early 90's before the internet - all you wanted to see were the scenes with the "action."
 
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MuayJitsu

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Cult classics, sure. But if you look at them from the viewpoint of a professional movie critic, I wouldn't even say his movies were "okay." Watching Bruce Lee movies was like watching late night Cinemax in the early 90's before the internet - all you wanted to see were the scenes with the "action."
Honestly I just watch the fights on YouTube I cant be bothered to sit through the painful acting. Way of the dragon was by far the worst in terms of acting it was so cringe. There was a reason they barely had him speak in enter the dragon
 

Instructor

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Chuck Norris.
There.
I said it.
When I was a kid I somehow managed to get two identical Chuck Norris action figure toys. As I grew older most of my old toys ended up in my kid sisters toy box. Since she had two she called one Chuck Norris and the other Nuck Chorris LOL!!!! I had forgotten about that till just now.
 

Hot Lunch

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All of them :D

The GOAT concept itself is overused and overrated!
I remember seeing a meme that listed Magic Johnson ("GOAT" of the 80's), Michael Jordan ("GOAT" of the 90's), Kobe Bryant ("GOAT" of the 00's), etc.

If they're forgetting what the "AT" stands for, then yeah. That word has lost all meaning.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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I'm someone who appreciates a craft. For example, I appreciate Muhammad Ali for his Boxing skills. I appreciate Saenchai for his Muay Thai skills. It doesn't matter to me how complete their art was; they were good at what they did.

In the world of Chinese and Japanese martial arts, the old-school way of learning was through apprenticeship. The apprentices learned their teacher's craft. They may learn 'trade secrets' just like how renowned chefs may have some 'trade secrets' regarding a recipe or a blacksmith forging a blade.

Koryu (old-school Japanese martial arts) were similar.

Nowadays, that kind of paradigm has been replaced or corrupted by commercialism. Being a disciple no longer means that you have a close relationship with your teacher; it's just a status. There are teachers that charged like $10,000 to be a disciple under. Multiply that by the number of disciples which has reached a three-digit number at least. Factor in tuition costs. They're easily millionaires.

They don't care about the quality of students. They want to be rich; they're probably sick and tired of being poor all of the time.

I don't hate a martial art art for being incomplete. If someone is legit good at a particular skill, I admire that. But forget about completeness, most people in TMA don't have a cultivated skillset in anything.

So if we take Wing Chun, Karate, or Taekwondo as examples... they're all very popular and famous. But... do you measure the state of the art based on the best of the best? Or the average?

Because it appears to me... that the more popular something is... the lower the average becomes. As the numerator of competent individuals barely clings to existence, the denominator of casual enthusiasts grows exponentially.

People who criticize martial arts often look at the average because.... if they're going to learn it... statistically, they will get something close to the average. And those who want to retort those criticisms always want to refer to the best of the best. But realistically, most people won't have access to that.

I personally would not recommend other people to learn the style that I learn because... I have absolutely no faith in them to find a teacher that meets my standards to be 'good'. It's like recommending someone to order a product on Amazon that has a 1-star rating. Sure... there might be a few 5 stars, but.... 99% of the ratings are 1 star, so... how could I justify recommending others to buy it?
What style/art do you practice?
 

Teapot

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What style/art do you practice?

I practice Chen Style Taijiquan - Gongfu Jia (Gongfu Frame).

But just because I practice Taijiquan doesn't mean I recommend others to practice Taijiquan. I may not even recommend the lineage I'm in - but for very different reasons.

Sometimes it feels like some martial art styles are competing on who can dish the highest quality of rubbish, and I would nominate Taijiquan as a candidate. Again, I'm not talking about "best of the best"; I'm talking about the average. :facepalm: The average is so embarrassingly low. I am embarrassed to share the same name as them. I wish what I practice can be renamed to something else.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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I practice Chen Style Taijiquan - Gongfu Jia (Gongfu Frame).

But just because I practice Taijiquan doesn't mean I recommend others to practice Taijiquan. I may not even recommend the lineage I'm in - but for very different reasons.

Sometimes it feels like some martial art styles are competing on who can dish the highest quality of rubbish, and I would nominate Taijiquan as a candidate. Again, I'm not talking about "best of the best"; I'm talking about the average. :facepalm: The average is so embarrassingly low. I am embarrassed to share the same name as them. I wish what I practice can be renamed to something else.
The same can be said for most. Im a believer in the individual player rather than style vs style or lineage vs lineage. The foundational things that make a skilled individual are the same across the board. How skilled individual athletes apply those foundational principles are what make up an art or style. It is possible to have both skilled and unskilled people who received similar training in any athletic endeavor.
 
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The same can be said for most. Im a believer in the individual player rather than style vs style or lineage vs lineage. The foundational things that make a skilled individual are the same across the board. How skilled individual athletes apply those foundational principles are what make up an art or style. It is possible to have both skilled and unskilled people who received similar training in any athletic endeavor.
Agreed. Totally. Pedigree can mean absolutely zero. I have met Sensei that come from garbage lineage, terrible teachers but they rose above it and can teach very well and are incredible martial artists and humans.

We do place far too much on technicalities. I guess I understand it if someone is claiming some legitimacy but if someone is honest why make issues
 

Teapot

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The same can be said for most. Im a believer in the individual player rather than style vs style or lineage vs lineage. The foundational things that make a skilled individual are the same across the board. How skilled individual athletes apply those foundational principles are what make up an art or style. It is possible to have both skilled and unskilled people who received similar training in any athletic endeavor.
Sure, but my remark on "average" does not discriminate on lineage/style - it refers to the population at large. There are plenty of people who suck in my lineage too.

I do believe in correlations between styles/lineages and skill levels. Of course, as the saying goes, correlation does not equal causation, but correlation is very useful in the real world when it comes to decision-making and predictions. But it can be a shortcut, lead to generalizations, and ignore outliers/nuances.

As a flawed human being, I will make predictions on someone's skill level if given information on their martial background. And generally speaking... I have not really encountered any surprises. If I think a teacher has a poor foundation, then it is not a surprise when I find out that his own students and students' students also share the same poor foundation.

I think critics generally base their criticisms on correlations, and that's frustrating to others because they frame it as causations.

Causation will be like: "Oh! You practice [insert style]? You must suck."

Correlation will be like: "Oh! You practice [insert style]? There's a high likelihood of you sucking given the evidence from the population. You could be an exception. But if I had to bet money on this, I would lean towards what the correlation suggests unless more information is given."
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Sure, but my remark on "average" does not discriminate on lineage/style - it refers to the population at large. There are plenty of people who suck in my lineage too.

I do believe in correlations between styles/lineages and skill levels. Of course, as the saying goes, correlation does not equal causation, but correlation is very useful in the real world when it comes to decision-making and predictions. But it can be a shortcut, lead to generalizations, and ignore outliers/nuances.

As a flawed human being, I will make predictions on someone's skill level if given information on their martial background. And generally speaking... I have not really encountered any surprises. If I think a teacher has a poor foundation, then it is not a surprise when I find out that his own students and students' students also share the same poor foundation.

I think critics generally base their criticisms on correlations, and that's frustrating to others because they frame it as causations.

Causation will be like: "Oh! You practice [insert style]? You must suck."

Correlation will be like: "Oh! You practice [insert style]? There's a high likelihood of you sucking given the evidence from the population. You could be an exception. But if I had to bet money on this, I would lean towards what the correlation suggests unless more information is given."
I think your viewpoint is valid. The whole thing is relative to so many variable factors. Any individual is a unique recipe, their training, size, experience, temperament, age, injuries, fitness, commitment, nutrition, etc. etc. etc. By this logic, you suck, and I do too. For the record, and for what its worth, its likely true. Humans are very fragile creatures.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Agreed. Totally. Pedigree can mean absolutely zero. I have met Sensei that come from garbage lineage, terrible teachers but they rose above it and can teach very well and are incredible martial artists and humans.

We do place far too much on technicalities. I guess I understand it if someone is claiming some legitimacy but if someone is honest why make issues
I love and deeply respect the history and hard work of my Sifu and Sigung. I cant expect anyone outside of my school to care a damn about it. I can tell somebody about it, but it confers no skill or relevance whatsoever. Rather, I judge skill on individual performance. I hope to meet a pure natural gifted student, but it hasnt happened yet.
 

Taiji Rebel

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Honestly I just watch the fights on YouTube I cant be bothered to sit through the painful acting. Way of the dragon was by far the worst in terms of acting it was so cringe. There was a reason they barely had him speak in enter the dragon
Way of the Dragon was my favorite as a young kid. So many funny lines and silly expressions. The fight scenes were good and the Coliseum cat was a brilliant addition :D

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Hot Lunch

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So... I'm on Facebook, and the discussion is about Bruce Lee vs Muhammed Ali.

I can't believe this is even a debate. Muhammed Ali is 56-5, and has beaten plenty of big names.

As for the people saying that Bruce Lee would win, the easiest way to defeat them in an argument is to ask them who Bruce Lee has beaten. You'll either be met with insults, or a description of his feats (i.e., not an answer to the question).

Lee has only been known to have beaten Wong Jack-man under very... dishonorable circumstances.
 

Dirty Dog

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So... I'm on Facebook, and the discussion is about Bruce Lee vs Muhammed Ali.

I can't believe this is even a debate. Muhammed Ali is 56-5, and has beaten plenty of big names.

As for the people saying that Bruce Lee would win, the easiest way to defeat them in an argument is to ask them who Bruce Lee has beaten. You'll either be met with insults, or a description of his feats (i.e., not an answer to the question).

Lee has only been known to have beaten Wong Jack-man under very... dishonorable circumstances.
Many people have a somewhat loose connection to reality and have difficulty understanding that movies are not real. Bruce Lee was an actor, not a fighter.
 

MuayJitsu

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So... I'm on Facebook, and the discussion is about Bruce Lee vs Muhammed Ali.

I can't believe this is even a debate. Muhammed Ali is 56-5, and has beaten plenty of big names.

As for the people saying that Bruce Lee would win, the easiest way to defeat them in an argument is to ask them who Bruce Lee has beaten. You'll either be met with insults, or a description of his feats (i.e., not an answer to the question).

Lee has only been known to have beaten Wong Jack-man under very... dishonorable circumstances.
lol I laugh at those people. Back in the 70s when no one knew anything sure but i cant believe in 2024 people still believe a little kung fu man could beat a professional heavyweight fighter.it just wouldnt happen. I doubt Lee would even win in his own weight class.

lee was great he was in shape (juicing though) had some good skills and got people interested in martial arts but being a real fighter is a whole other level. Im good on the pads and shadow boxing and Im in decent shape.but I know full well Im no fighter. I had one fight which i won but I know Im not for that lifestyle I like the training but no way am I a fighter itd be the same for lee skilled sure but not a fighter. I mean if he was hed have fought存imple as that even then there were loads of ways to test himself then hed have made money and shown the world just how great he truly is在ut he didnt and thats fine Im not saying that as an insult but theres levels to it and Ali, tyson whoever they are a huge level above him.

i mean look at someone like demetrius Johnson hes probably around his weight class.he would absolutely wipe the floor with lee in any way he wanted.i mean the man put rodtang to sleep.someone whos a way more dangerous striker than lee could even dream of being
 

Bill Mattocks

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I think I proved my initial point. For some reason, everything has to be graded, everyone must have an opinion on who is the 'greatest' at anything. There is no method by which one can I say "I like X" without proclaiming and publically defending X being the GOAT.

Why? I still don't get it. I would ask who cares, but clearly everyone does, so my question instead is WHY does everyone care?

I find it boring and uninteresting in the extreme. What was the best Western? Who hit the hardest? Best QB? Best bass player? Best song? Not only do I not care, I don't understand why anyone does care.

And if you ask the question, all you get are more recitations of why blah blah blah is the best at blah blah blah.

None of you are that person, object, or service. You have zero vested interest in putting forward or defending the idea that they are the best at anything. You'll never get the rest of the world to agree with you, and you won't get paid for having and defending your proclamation. What's the point?

"But D0000d, Henry Q. Higgenbottom is the BEST llama groomer of ALL TIIIIIIIIIME! I will totally lose my schizzzzzz if you don't agree with me! I've got STATS, bro!"
 

Hot Lunch

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I think I proved my initial point. For some reason, everything has to be graded, everyone must have an opinion on who is the 'greatest' at anything. There is no method by which one can I say "I like X" without proclaiming and publically defending X being the GOAT.

Why? I still don't get it. I would ask who cares, but clearly everyone does, so my question instead is WHY does everyone care?

I find it boring and uninteresting in the extreme. What was the best Western? Who hit the hardest? Best QB? Best bass player? Best song? Not only do I not care, I don't understand why anyone does care.

And if you ask the question, all you get are more recitations of why blah blah blah is the best at blah blah blah.

None of you are that person, object, or service. You have zero vested interest in putting forward or defending the idea that they are the best at anything. You'll never get the rest of the world to agree with you, and you won't get paid for having and defending your proclamation. What's the point?

"But D0000d, Henry Q. Higgenbottom is the BEST llama groomer of ALL TIIIIIIIIIME! I will totally lose my schizzzzzz if you don't agree with me! I've got STATS, bro!"
In the case of Bruce Lee, his fanboys think that anyone who believes he couldn't literally walk on water "doesn't know anything about" whatever, and will come out and say that. That's why I like engaging them. So I can beat them at their little "knowledge" game that they try to start.
 

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