Overrated

Bujingodai

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So, we always seem to go with the populus when someone is rated the GOAT etc. Like, say greatest guitarist most lists will have Hendrix at the top or the like. As no one really does a deep dive.
Elvis, Beatles all seem to get to their tops, a lot of the time since when they were big, there wasn't the same competition or field

I think this also spans to the arts. Populus views etc


Is there a martial artist touted as being a GOAT that really wasn't that good? In your opinion or overrated
 

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I've seen a few schools that might fall under this but not the arts themselves. The worst are those no touch creeps you see on YouTube.
 

isshinryuronin

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Is there a martial artist touted as being a GOAT that really wasn't that good? In your opinion or overrated
What do you mean by the "greatest?" Sport fighting? Influence? Skill? Knowledge? Historical? Modern? Each of these may have a different answer. Itosu, Matsumura, Mabuni, Miyagi, Urquiediz, and Lee may be some possible choices, along with a dozen more, depending on the criteria.
 

Bill Mattocks

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So, we always seem to go with the populus when someone is rated the GOAT etc. Like, say greatest guitarist most lists will have Hendrix at the top or the like. As no one really does a deep dive.
Elvis, Beatles all seem to get to their tops, a lot of the time since when they were big, there wasn't the same competition or field

I think this also spans to the arts. Populus views etc


Is there a martial artist touted as being a GOAT that really wasn't that good? In your opinion or overrated
I've never really paid much attention or needed to define someone as the GOAT in anything, really. There are plenty of folks I think are terrific, but I don't think they (or anyone) is the GOAT in any definable sense for any period of time.

I get the concept, but it's a big 'meh' to me. I lived through the "Clapton is God" era; the fact that other guitarists have since been proclaimed the best is just words. Clapton is great; others are great too. Why is it important that one be better than another? You enjoy their music or you don't, right? Same for martial artists, except that since I don't follow MMA or watch martial arts movies (Kuro Obi was an exception), I don't even know most of their names and wouldn't recognize their faces if I saw them.
 

Hot Lunch

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Mike Tyson. The average young boxing fan who was born after Muhammad Ali's time can easily name four or five fighters off the dome that he has beaten. The average fan born after Tyson's time probably couldn't even name one that Tyson has beaten. Even the average fan who WAS around can probably only name Bruno, Holmes, and Spinks. Hardcore Tyson fans will add Ruddock, but can't name a fighter that Ruddock has beaten (hint, Ruddock has never beaten anyone good himself).

Bruce Lee. The man that no one can beat. But what's Bruce Lee's fighting record? That's right, 0-0. I'll put any MMA fighter who is at least 1-x over Bruce Lee. Because at least they've actually beaten someone.
 

Gyakuto

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So, we always seem to go with the populus when someone is rated the GOAT etc. Like, say greatest guitarist most lists will have Hendrix at the top or the like.
<ahem> Edward Van Halen was the
Karaoke singer.
They were innovative due in considerable part, Sir George Martin who suggested things like plagal cadences and tierce de picardie etc which moved them beyond the boy band pop act and, in time amazing musicians the became. Something and Here Comes the Sun are masterful (both written by George Harrison).
all seem to get to their tops, a lot of the time since when they were big, there wasn't the same competition or field

I think this also spans to the arts. Populus views etc
It amuses me how popular longevity leads to musical credibility. Kylie Minogue, for goodness sake. Take That 丐
Is there a martial artist touted as being a GOAT that really wasn't that good? In your opinion or overrated
No

The reason is there is a almost objective measure of being a good martial artist. You fight them and see if they can be beaten. Even the great Mike Tyson (I love him!) was eventually beaten. The other example you gave are purely subjective measures: a matter of personal taste. Some people just like Kylie, Elvis, Take That, The Beatles and thats their taste.
 

Teapot

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Is there a martial artist touted as being a GOAT that really wasn't that good? In your opinion or overrated

I can think of one name where there is a population of people who think he's the GOAT and a population of people who think he's overrated.

*Ahem* Bruce Lee.

*Runs away*
 

Hot Lunch

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Remember all the outrage that came after Michael Jai White said he could beat Bruce Lee, and he was forced to issue a public apology for it? When a celebrity martial artist faces the threat of being canceled for saying that, we know that the fans have some serious issues.

Michael Jai White has also stated that he believes that Jackie Chan could beat Bruce Lee. Jackie Chan then responded by saying that he couldn't (a statement that I don't think he actually believes - he simply knew what the consequences would've been for agreeing with White's claim).
 

punisher73

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As my old college roommate used to say, "Everybody sucks to somebody else".

Times change, training methods change, innovations become regular.

I don't think you can have a "GOAT" when it comes to human performance. I think you can have greats of specific eras. Lets use Jimi Hendrix as an example. Much of what he did was innovative at the time and made him great. Guitarists later took his innovations and made them better and came up with their own innovations. Eddie VanHalen is a much better guitarist in my opinion. Right now, in many people's opinions, VanHalen is the GOAT for rock guitarists. But, it will only be a matter of time before music changes and someone else comes along and builds on what made VanHalen so great.

BUT...that being said. I think Bruce Lee was very influential in spreading other people's ideas (as his own) due to his popularity and he was very physically gifted, but I think the idol worship he gets makes him overrated.
 

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Remember all the outrage that came after Michael Jai White said he could beat Bruce Lee, and he was forced to issue a public apology for it? When a celebrity martial artist faces the threat of being canceled for saying that, we know that the fans have some serious issues.

Michael Jai White has also stated that he believes that Jackie Chan could beat Bruce Lee. Jackie Chan then responded by saying that he couldn't (a statement that I don't think he actually believes - he simply knew what the consequences would've been for agreeing with White's claim).
Cancel Culture = No Culture
 

Teapot

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On that note, I have another hot take - although... I haven't met anyone who disagrees with it yet so maybe it's not such a hot take.

But I think Ip Man might be retrospectively overrated as a consequence of Bruce Lee.

If we take Bruce Lee out of the equation, I don't think Ip Man or Wing Chun would be talked about today at such a global scale. I would speculate that the popularity/fame of Wing Chun would be similar to an average Southern Chinese martial art such as Bak Mei or Choy Li Fut.

If I went up to a random person and asked: "Hey, do you know about Wing Chun?" There's a high likelihood that will have heard of it.

But if I ask: "Hey, do you know about Bak Mei?" They probably would have no idea what Bak Mei is.
 

Hot Lunch

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On that note, I have another hot take - although... I haven't met anyone who disagrees with it yet so maybe it's not such a hot take.

But I think Ip Man might be retrospectively overrated as a consequence of Bruce Lee.

If we take Bruce Lee out of the equation, I don't think Ip Man or Wing Chun would be talked about today at such a global scale. I would speculate that the popularity/fame of Wing Chun would be similar to an average Southern Chinese martial art such as Bak Mei or Choy Li Fut.

If I went up to a random person and asked: "Hey, do you know about Wing Chun?" There's a high likelihood that will have heard of it.

But if I ask: "Hey, do you know about Bak Mei?" They probably would have no idea what Bak Mei is.
I agree with what you're saying about Ip Man, but as for Wing Chun... you're probably right, but that doesn't reflect poorly on Wing Chun. The worldwide popularity of karate and taekwondo came about as the result of tragic world events that should never have happened, so I wouldn't knock on Wing Chun for the origins of its popularity.
 

skribs

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I think the vast majority of styles, techniques, and methodologies have some merit. The problem is that nearly every art is incomplete.

The problem with a lot of the non-sport systems is a lack of pressure testing, or at least realistic pressure testing. The problem with a lot of the sport systems is a lack of translation from the mat/ring to reality.

I think that in the current environment, sport systems are overrated by the community and other systems underrated.
 

Hot Lunch

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Here's another one: no is calling him "the GOAT," but the media loves shoving him down our throats. And that's Tyson Fury. Who has Fury beaten? If you say Wilder, I'm gonna ask you who Wilder has beaten. If you say Klitscho, I'm gonna ask you if you honestly believe that was the same Klitschko that beat Rahman whole decade earlier. Heavyweight boxing these days is one big pile of crap, and Fury just happens the be turd sitting at the top of it.
 

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On that note, I have another hot take - although... I haven't met anyone who disagrees with it yet so maybe it's not such a hot take.

But I think Ip Man might be retrospectively overrated as a consequence of Bruce Lee.

If we take Bruce Lee out of the equation, I don't think Ip Man or Wing Chun would be talked about today at such a global scale. I would speculate that the popularity/fame of Wing Chun would be similar to an average Southern Chinese martial art such as Bak Mei or Choy Li Fut.

If I went up to a random person and asked: "Hey, do you know about Wing Chun?" There's a high likelihood that will have heard of it.

But if I ask: "Hey, do you know about Bak Mei?" They probably would have no idea what Bak Mei is.
Pre internet all we had was the local martial arts school (whatever it ended up being), TV, and movies. Now that we have the internet we have access to a LOT more misinformation.
 

Teapot

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I'm someone who appreciates a craft. For example, I appreciate Muhammad Ali for his Boxing skills. I appreciate Saenchai for his Muay Thai skills. It doesn't matter to me how complete their art was; they were good at what they did.

In the world of Chinese and Japanese martial arts, the old-school way of learning was through apprenticeship. The apprentices learned their teacher's craft. They may learn 'trade secrets' just like how renowned chefs may have some 'trade secrets' regarding a recipe or a blacksmith forging a blade.

Koryu (old-school Japanese martial arts) were similar.

Nowadays, that kind of paradigm has been replaced or corrupted by commercialism. Being a disciple no longer means that you have a close relationship with your teacher; it's just a status. There are teachers that charged like $10,000 to be a disciple under. Multiply that by the number of disciples which has reached a three-digit number at least. Factor in tuition costs. They're easily millionaires.

They don't care about the quality of students. They want to be rich; they're probably sick and tired of being poor all of the time.

I don't hate a martial art art for being incomplete. If someone is legit good at a particular skill, I admire that. But forget about completeness, most people in TMA don't have a cultivated skillset in anything.

So if we take Wing Chun, Karate, or Taekwondo as examples... they're all very popular and famous. But... do you measure the state of the art based on the best of the best? Or the average?

Because it appears to me... that the more popular something is... the lower the average becomes. As the numerator of competent individuals barely clings to existence, the denominator of casual enthusiasts grows exponentially.

People who criticize martial arts often look at the average because.... if they're going to learn it... statistically, they will get something close to the average. And those who want to retort those criticisms always want to refer to the best of the best. But realistically, most people won't have access to that.

I personally would not recommend other people to learn the style that I learn because... I have absolutely no faith in them to find a teacher that meets my standards to be 'good'. It's like recommending someone to order a product on Amazon that has a 1-star rating. Sure... there might be a few 5 stars, but.... 99% of the ratings are 1 star, so... how could I justify recommending others to buy it?
 
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Bujingodai

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See it started conversation.

Ninja boom was funny that made overnight stars of a lot. Spending a number of years in the big org for that, I saw a lot of garbage. From the very top down, where they made fun of some folks for not being a part of it. That actually trained rather hard and effective

But totally right that, it is whatever value you put into it and it's effectiveness. I take exception to Bruce Lee, I really enjoyed him as a kid. Sounded like he was a horrible human at times and was a big deal for his time. TBH he brought the arts to where they are. But I do think he was a very talented physical specimen but overrated I would say personally. That said, way more proficient than I ever have been.

For the record guitarists. David Gilmour is Everest higher than all of them for me personally but it's a sound not technique. Big fan of Tom Morello as well. Nuno etc etc. I don't do a deep dive on that. EVH was incredible. Could go on. But I don't play so I don't know who is really great or overrated.
 

MuayJitsu

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Bruce lee without question.

a good martial artist had some good skills did a lot to get people interested but the way people talk about him hes very overrated. They talk like he was this 500-0 fighter when in fact he didnt fight anyone (minus a few school yard fights which really mean nothing as almost every kid on earth had those ) they say rubbish like how he could KO Mike Tyson or beat everyone in the UFC. He was In great shape had some decent ability and made some okay movies. But as a martial artist he wasnt anywhere the best as some claim he was he wasnt even the best martial artist of his time let alone all time. he got a lot of people interested in martial arts and he worked hard at his own thing and he absolutely deserves respect for all that but hes definitely overrated by a lot of people
 

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